(March 20, 2014 at 8:26 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(March 20, 2014 at 7:26 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote: I'll have to disagree, the presupposition that we have "fallen from grace" is not as valid as the scientific theory of evolution.

Why would a god create us in a state where we need forgiveness?

The idea that we have fallen from grace has zero to do with the material consideration of evolution. From the link, saleability is a consideration of teleology, and evolution materialism.

Teleologically, our fulfillment is achieved through God.

Good can't exist without it's opposite force. Love couldn't be given if hate weren't also possible. The only way we could exist without needs is if there were no good and bad. We need love, and that demands our innocence.

No no NO. Love and lack of love is not the same as love and hate.
Love is possible without hate.

(March 20, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote: why is it that you think we are "fallen" without original sin?

That's just an observation of the human condition. We aren't perfect. We're victim to our natural desires, which are sometimes destructive. That's why people made sacrifices, to try and clear their consciences. You pay the debt you owe, and you can feel justified that you're a good person again.

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OK anyone know what the hell I meant instead of "saleability" lol

I was lost in word salad there, sorry

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(March 20, 2014 at 8:28 pm)tor Wrote: No no NO. Love and lack of love is not the same as love and hate.
Love is possible without hate.

Really? If you didn't have extremes of emotion then your emotional range would be limited. Maybe extreme good and extreme bad is a better way of putting it. The point stands, something can't exist as an extreme without it's opposite extreme. To feel love, you must also be able to feel the opposite. You could not exist in one extreme, only a dead emotionally, middle ground.

(March 20, 2014 at 8:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(March 20, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote: why is it that you think we are "fallen" without original sin?

That's just an observation of the human condition. We aren't perfect. We're victim to our natural desires, which are sometimes destructive. That's why people made sacrifices, to try and clear their consciences. You pay the debt you owe, and you can feel justified that you're a good person again.

I agree that we aren't perfect, but that isn't quite my point. I'm asking why would a god make an imperfect creation on purpose? It makes even less sense than the garden of Eden situation and that, my friend, is saying something.

What I'm also getting at is why do you think you need a saviour to pay for your, and your forefather's mistakes or "fallen" nature if there was no original sin to pass down.

You're just blinded by your Christian heritage!!!



It's not imperfect. It's imperfection is it's perfection. A genius design (teleologically )

If you agree that we're not perfect, then your agreeing with the shrouded in dogma term "Adams sin". You're saying the same thing, but without the baggage. That's how I understand it, but I've not had your brainwashing you poor sap!

(March 20, 2014 at 8:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(March 20, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Aral Gamelon Wrote: why is it that you think we are "fallen" without original sin?

That's just an observation of the human condition. We aren't perfect. We're victim to our natural desires, which are sometimes destructive. That's why people made sacrifices, to try and clear their consciences. You pay the debt you owe, and you can feel justified that you're a good person again.

---

OK anyone know what the hell I meant instead of "saleability" lol

I was lost in word salad there, sorry

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(March 20, 2014 at 8:28 pm)tor Wrote: No no NO. Love and lack of love is not the same as love and hate.
Love is possible without hate.

Really? If you didn't have extremes of emotion then your emotional range would be limited. Maybe extreme good and extreme bad is a better way of putting it. The point stands, something can't exist as an extreme without it's opposite extreme. To feel love, you must also be able to feel the opposite. You could not exist in one extreme, only a dead emotionally, middle ground.

Wrong.
The coldest temperature possible is -273.15 degrees. The positive temperature however can be infinite. You see the difference?

(March 20, 2014 at 8:14 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(March 20, 2014 at 7:25 pm)Rahul Wrote: The fact that we are risen apes is not a presupposition. It's factual. Waaaay more valid than the religious idea.

I totally agree. The way you put it, I have absolutely no problem in 100% agreeing with you.

That's nothing to do with the subject tho. Maybe you missed it :P

Maybe you have a problem stating points clearly if every thread you post in, every reply "misses the point" you were making.

Yes. I'm talking about two opposite things and you're talking about two unequal things.

(March 20, 2014 at 9:04 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You're just blinded by your Christian heritage!!!



It's not imperfect. It's imperfection is it's perfection. A genius design (teleologically )

If you agree that we're not perfect, then your agreeing with the shrouded in dogma term "Adams sin". You're saying the same thing, but without the baggage. That's how I understand it, but I've not had your brainwashing you poor sap!

As for my Christian upbringing, I like to think it gives me some ammo since I know the ins and outs of Christianity to a certain degree.

Oy vey, if I had a nickel for every time I heard the "imperfection is perfection/design" line I'd have, well, enough to buy a redbull that's for sure.

My brain has been restored to normal function now thankyouverymuch!

(March 20, 2014 at 9:04 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You're just blinded by your Christian heritage!!!



It's not imperfect. It's imperfection is it's perfection. A genius design (teleologically )

If you agree that we're not perfect, then your agreeing with the shrouded in dogma term "Adams sin". You're saying the same thing, but without the baggage. That's how I understand it, but I've not had your brainwashing you poor sap!

It's not a bug, it's a feature.
It must have been intelligently designed, so therefore it was designed perfectly.
It's flawlessly flawed making it unflawed.

I don't think it's an imperfect creation. I can't come up with a better one that is logical. Fairytales don't count