We've always heard that nothing but gases came out of the Big Bang. Even gases are made up of atoms. Science now tells us that atoms are made up of quantum particles.

Well, if those atom-made gases are what exploded out of the Big Bang, then where (in what dimension) did the quantum particles come together to form those atoms?

The Beginning of Time by Stephen Hawking is a good article to start with. You could then go to google and try entering searches like 'before the big bang'/'what came before the big bang' to turn up more articles. (I''ve just done that and found dozens of them).

(April 15, 2014 at 8:51 am)Confused Ape Wrote: The Beginning of Time by Stephen Hawking is a good article to start with. You could then go to google and try entering searches like 'before the big bang'/'what came before the big bang' to turn up more articles. (I''ve just done that and found dozens of them).

Hey, if you didn't want to talk about it and add your own two cents, then why did you reply? If I wanted to take ten years to research this topic I certainly wouldn't have brought it up here.

(April 15, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: Hey, if you didn't want to talk about it and add your own two cents, then why did you reply? If I wanted to take ten years to research this topic I certainly wouldn't have brought it up here.

So you're hoping there are forum members who have spent ten years researching this topic so you don't have to do anything yourself???

What I've gathered from various articles is that nobody knows. Stephen Hawking says -

Quote:At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang.

Then there's the idea that our universe may exist inside a black hole.

Every Black Hole Contains A New Universe

Quote:In turn, the torsion mechanism suggests an astonishing scenario: every black hole would produce a new, baby universe inside. If that is true, then the first matter in our universe came from somewhere else. So our own universe could be the interior of a black hole existing in another universe. Just as we cannot see what is going on inside black holes in the cosmos, any observers in the parent universe could not see what is going on in ours.

PS:Alternatives to the Singularity

Quote:Various new models of what preceded and caused the Big Bang have been proposed as a result of the problems created by quantum mechanics. One model, using loop quantum gravity, aims to explain the beginnings of the Universe through a series of Big Bounces, in which quantum fluctuations cause the Universe to expand. This formulation also predicts a cyclic model of universes, with a new universe being created after an old one is destroyed, each with different physical constants.[2] Another formulation, based on M-theory and observations of the cosmic microwave background, states that the Universe is but one of many in a multiverse, and has budded off from another universe as a result of quantum fluctuations, as opposed to our Universe being all that exists.[4]

While we are still trying to figure out what happened before, if anything, I really hate this argument because when theists read this they stupidly go "AH HA, you don't know so therefore".

They never want to consider that anything we don't know now is a product of a "what" not a product in a factory created by a "who" boss. If one accepts that the seasons on this planet change without help from a cognition, and that a hurricane does not need Poseidon to occur, and lightening doesn't need Thor, then the universe itself does not need a human or super human to lead to what we see now.

What science is proving is that "all this" is a giant weather pattern, not caused by a thinking cognition. So when one employs Ocham's razor to the unknown, the simplest explanation is most likely that what was prior is simply the end result of something else that lead to the big bang.

Even Hawkins has said "A God Is not required".

Don't allow the theist to trap us in the issue of infinite vs finite when science says neither require a cognition.

(April 15, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: Hey, if you didn't want to talk about it and add your own two cents, then why did you reply? If I wanted to take ten years to research this topic I certainly wouldn't have brought it up here.

So what, you're expecting one of us to give you the answer? If any of us knew we'd be collecting our nobel fucking prizes not sitting on an atheist forum.

(April 14, 2014 at 10:04 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: Well, if those atom-made gases are what exploded out of the Big Bang, then where (in what dimension) did the quantum particles come together to form those atoms?

I think by quantum particles you probably mean elementary particles.

Atom itself is a quantum particle.

Elementary particles emerged from the big bang into our 3 dimensions. Only a significant amount of time have passed did a small fraction of these elementary particles coalese to form atomic nucleii. Then a lot more time passed before these atomic nucleii acquired their electron shells and became something that can in any way be described as gas.

So gas did not come out of the big bang. Gas couldn't possibly exist under the conditions of the big bang, nor for hundred of throusands of years afterwards.


Where did the elementary particles that came out of the big bang initially come from? We don't know. No one does. Christians in particular have less clue then zero.

(April 14, 2014 at 10:04 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: We've always heard that nothing but gases came out of the Big Bang. Even gases are made up of atoms. Science now tells us that atoms are made up of quantum particles.

Well, if those atom-made gases are what exploded out of the Big Bang, then where (in what dimension) did the quantum particles come together to form those atoms?

If you've 'always heard that nothing but gases came out of the Big Bang', you need to find other people to listen to. Either that, or you need to listen more closely. Gases did NOT come out of the Big Bang - they formed later. Even the subatomic nuclei which formed the atoms which formed the gases were not an immediate product of the BB.

Nothing 'exploded' out of the BB.

The quantum particles you refer to formed in the earlier (but not earliest) phase of the expansion, a period known as 'symmetry breaking'. To ask in what dimension the quanta formed is an incoherent question.

I confess to having done some research on this topic. It took 6 minutes, not ten years. Lazy bastard, you.

Boru

addendum: erm, yeah. What Chuck said.

(April 14, 2014 at 10:04 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: We've always heard that nothing but gases came out of the Big Bang. Even gases are made up of atoms. Science now tells us that atoms are made up of quantum particles.

Well, if those atom-made gases are what exploded out of the Big Bang, then where (in what dimension) did the quantum particles come together to form those atoms?

The key to understanding the early Universe is a proper understanding of Symmetry and more specifically the spontaneous breaking of symmetry.

If we take the four fundamental forces, electromagnetic, gravity, nuclear-strong and nuclear-weak. There is an enormous difference today in the observed effects of electromagnetic and nuclear-weak forces (and their respective carriers), we can say these forces are unsymmetrical. But, from an experiment in the early 80s at CERN we know of the existence of a unified electroweak force that would have existed under the conditions that occurred in the early stages of the Universe, when the forces were much more symmetrical.

Symmetry breaking is key to understanding why the Universe looks the way it does today, and many believe why it looks this way at all.

The spontaneous breaking of gauge symmetries is better known to us today as the Higgs mechanism, an important component in understanding the origin of particle masses in the Standard Model.

Despite being the subject of a Nobel Prize, Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking has yet to fulfil its full potential and I personally believe it will play a significant part in the development of a Unification Theory in the not too distant future.

MM

(April 14, 2014 at 10:04 pm)Jiggerj Wrote: We've always heard that nothing but gases came out of the Big Bang. Even gases are made up of atoms. Science now tells us that atoms are made up of quantum particles.

Well, if those atom-made gases are what exploded out of the Big Bang, then where (in what dimension) did the quantum particles come together to form those atoms?

Big bang was more like a liquid...not a gas.