(May 8, 2014 at 2:25 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: I know you point is valid and acceptable. But you are still reffering to the first creative act. There is an eternity before that. All the things that lead to the first creative act cannot be ignored.

No, actually, by current understandings, there was not an infinite amount of time before the first 'creative' act.

(May 8, 2014 at 2:33 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: Yep. And that's what I was proving...

You have proven nothing.

(May 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm)LostLocke Wrote: No, actually, by current understandings, there was not an infinite amount of time before the first 'creative' act.

According to who's understanding. We both have stable mind so let's understand.
Yes 'WE' take t=0 when the first creative act. But this doesn't mean there no before that.

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(May 8, 2014 at 2:38 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: You have proven nothing.

Ty

(May 8, 2014 at 2:25 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: I know you point is valid and acceptable. But you are still reffering to the first creative act. There is an eternity before that. All the things that lead to the first creative act cannot be ignored. And where did all those things come from. See we are inside a loop. We need something outside this loop of time and space.

Do we? What if the universe is an eternal, self-perpetuating construct?

Quote:Yes this debate comes after we accept that there is something eternal. This is an entire topic of understanding God.

But what if the universe is that eternal thing? What if it changes states when it runs out of energy and collapses on itself? Or perhaps each universe simply spawns more universes before it dies, and it's just an eternal chain of universes being formed?

Without evidence of god, I am free to imagine a universe that does not require her to exist. Our inability to comprehend eternity and the possibility that something exists outside of space and time makes just about any theory possible. And if history shows us anything, it's that we have come up with seemingly endless explanations for how a god, or gods, created everything we are aware of (which is to say, ancient men limited creation to their lands, then to the Earth, and so on).

(May 8, 2014 at 3:08 pm)Tonus Wrote: Do we? What if the universe is an eternal, self-perpetuating construct?

Yes. Then the questions comes how.

Quote:But what if the universe is that eternal thing? What if it changes states when it runs out of energy and collapses on itself? Or perhaps each universe simply spawns more universes before it dies, and it's just an eternal chain of universes being formed?

Without evidence of god, I am free to imagine a universe that does not require her to exist. Our inability to comprehend eternity and the possibility that something exists outside of space and time makes just about any theory possible. And if history shows us anything, it's that we have come up with seemingly endless explanations for how a god, or gods, created everything we are aware of (which is to say, ancient men limited creation to their lands, then to the Earth, and so on).

You just brought us back to step one of this discussion.
I don't like calling someone's argument fallacious. But this has many fallacies.
First of all you are still thinking inside if the loop, you say if its happening since eternity then I can ask what about the first. You need a start. Something that was before everything. Otherwise you won't get anywhere

Since you have presented a theory the burden of proof lies on you :p. I am anxious to see how you prove yourself correct.

(May 8, 2014 at 2:39 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: According to who's understanding. We both have stable mind so let's understand.
Yes 'WE' take t=0 when the first creative act. But this doesn't mean there no before that.

All time that we know, use, understand, and perceive is physically hardwired into the universe. Literally.

Time, as we see it, like space itself, began at the big bang.
We don't know what time is like outside or 'before' the big bang. In fact, we don't even know any time exists apart from our universe. And if it does, it's likely it doesn't function in a way we understand it too.
Maybe there was a cause to the big bang, but that cause hasn't happened yet. That's the kind of timey wimey stuff we're talking about.

(May 8, 2014 at 3:26 pm)LostLocke Wrote:

(May 8, 2014 at 2:39 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: According to who's understanding. We both have stable mind so let's understand.
Yes 'WE' take t=0 when the first creative act. But this doesn't mean there no before that.

All time that we know, use, understand, and perceive is physically hardwired into the universe. Literally.

Time, as we see it, like space itself, began at the big bang.
We don't know what time is like outside or 'before' the big bang. In fact, we don't even know any time exists apart from our universe. And if it does, it's likely it doesn't function in a way we understand it too.
Maybe there was a cause to the big bang, but that cause hasn't happened yet. That's the kind of timey wimey stuff we're talking about.

haha, yes you are right.
Its not impossible to be another time before big bang then. So we are left with an infinity to deal with. Or like I said eternity. And there we have to take out something that is eternal.

"Maybe there was a cause to the big bang, but that cause hasn't happened yet"
You really lost me there. Mind elaborating

(May 8, 2014 at 3:36 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: You really lost me there. Mind elaborating

We only know what time means within the confines of our universe, there is no reason to think that time is the same outside if it exists at all, it could very well be non-linear.

Oooooo :3

(May 8, 2014 at 3:23 pm)lordofgemini Wrote: You just brought us back to step one of this discussion.

I think that's where we have been the whole time.

I am not presenting a claim about how the universe was formed, I am pointing out that any possibility is just as valid as god until we have sufficient evidence for god. As far as I am aware, at this time the best that theoretical physicists can do is make guesses about "how." It may be agonizing to not know for sure (or worse, not know at all) but if we try to soothe that need to know by inserting things that we cannot validate, it makes it more difficult to figure out what really did happen.

A simple example would be: what proof is there that there had to be a starting point outside of the universe? In other words, what proof is there that my imagined universe (which is simply a self-perpetuating machine) cannot be true?