(May 11, 2014 at 4:19 pm)max-greece Wrote: If someone else has had this theory before me - well - it wouldn't be the first time.

It might be; that's sort of the point.

Quote:It is rather hard to estimate what the probability is, but it is clearly very, very unlikely that those fine tunings, which allowed this Pyramid of complexities to arise, would be there as consequence of chance.

But I imagine you have no problem with the "probability" of an all-powerful being who exists outside of time and space and who one day suddenly decided to poof everything into existence, huh?

(May 11, 2014 at 6:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:It is rather hard to estimate what the probability is, but it is clearly very, very unlikely that those fine tunings, which allowed this Pyramid of complexities to arise, would be there as consequence of chance.

But I imagine you have no problem with the "probability" of an all-powerful being who exists outside of time and space and who one day suddenly decided to poof everything into existence, huh?

I don't think the universe could exist by chance, either. Chance requires a framework in which multiple events may happen. In other words, you need a framework in which many universes could be attempted, with some collapsing, some blowing up, and some resulting in life forms like us.

I don't think we have either evidence of such a framework, or a sound logical reason to believe that there is such. So as far as we can know, the universe is necessarily as it is, and could not have been otherwise. But where does this essential and inviolable nature come from?

(May 11, 2014 at 4:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: Maybe, but you will get a variety of adaptations to a new environment. And given two similar environments which are isolated from each other, you will very possibly get different adaptations (and species). Just because new phenotypes are better adapted doesn't mean they aren't also random.

Imagine that a group of early humans or prehumans was killed by an unfortunate event, rather than making a lucky escape. Totally random event, massive effect on evolution.

Mutation is not the only source of variation, there is also relative frequency of alleles in the population.

The environment 'selects' what survives and reproduces. The variants that make it through that sieve determine adaptation. And that is not random.

(May 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)Chas Wrote:

(May 11, 2014 at 4:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: Maybe, but you will get a variety of adaptations to a new environment. And given two similar environments which are isolated from each other, you will very possibly get different adaptations (and species). Just because new phenotypes are better adapted doesn't mean they aren't also random.

Imagine that a group of early humans or prehumans was killed by an unfortunate event, rather than making a lucky escape. Totally random event, massive effect on evolution.

Mutation is not the only source of variation, there is also relative frequency of alleles in the population.

The environment 'selects' what survives and reproduces. The variants that make it through that sieve determine adaptation. And that is not random.

It is random, because that sieve is not static. It involves too many unpredictable variables: weather, for example, or giant rocks falling from the sky, or the whims of powerful individuals. None of these things are predictable, and they all serve to destabilize environmental pressures.

(May 12, 2014 at 10:38 am)bennyboy Wrote: It is random, because that sieve is not static. It involves too many unpredictable variables: weather, for example, or giant rocks falling from the sky, or the whims of powerful individuals. None of these things are predictable, and they all serve to destabilize environmental pressures.

Suppose I role a pair of dice 1000 times. The result of each roll is random, but the sum of the outcomes is non-random because of standard deviation. In the end, I will roll seven about 167 times, and snake eyes about 28 times. In fact, that exact outcome has the most potential. The set of all possible outcomes contains more variations on that outcome than any other outcome.

(May 11, 2014 at 7:23 pm)Chas Wrote:

(May 11, 2014 at 4:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: Maybe, but you will get a variety of adaptations to a new environment. And given two similar environments which are isolated from each other, you will very possibly get different adaptations (and species). Just because new phenotypes are better adapted doesn't mean they aren't also random.

Imagine that a group of early humans or prehumans was killed by an unfortunate event, rather than making a lucky escape. Totally random event, massive effect on evolution.

Mutation is not the only source of variation, there is also relative frequency of alleles in the population.

The environment 'selects' what survives and reproduces. The variants that make it through that sieve determine adaptation. And that is not random.

You are confusing the results with the process. The algorithm is not random.

Given an environment, a species will become adapted to it or go extinct.

I knew I didn't want to read this thread... -.-'
Why did I let my curiosity get the better of me?!
Anyway, TL;DR, not much was lost... plus, the OP seems to be a hit and run, so there's no point in replying properly.
Have a nice day.

(May 10, 2014 at 8:13 pm)Beccs Wrote: So many fallacies, so little time.

"You shall not pass!" - Gandalf, Lord of the Rings.

See I can quote books of fantasy, too.

And, seriously, if you're going to start referring to Ben Stein you demonstrate the desperation of your argument.

Pretty sure he said "You cannot pass!" in the novel. I'll check latter lol.

I feel like I do it to much here, but I'll push Krauss's "A Universe from Nothing" in this thread. Then insist OP change the word "logical" in his avatar to "derp sauce".

(May 12, 2014 at 2:18 pm)ThePinsir Wrote:

(May 10, 2014 at 8:13 pm)Beccs Wrote: So many fallacies, so little time.

"You shall not pass!" - Gandalf, Lord of the Rings.

See I can quote books of fantasy, too.

And, seriously, if you're going to start referring to Ben Stein you demonstrate the desperation of your argument.

Pretty sure he said "You cannot pass!" in the novel. I'll check latter lol.

I feel like I do it to much here, but I'll push Krauss's "A Universe from Nothing" in this thread. Then insist OP change the word "logical" in his avatar to "derp sauce".

At least I am not the only one. Krauss fan here too.