(May 25, 2014 at 1:26 am)max-greece Wrote:

(May 24, 2014 at 11:49 pm)LostLocke Wrote: OK, gonna go back to my JW years for this one.

The idea is that the universe is so vast for 2 possible (and very likely both) reasons....

First, in the original perfect world, man would live forever, giving him enough time to eventually develop the technology needed to reach far into space.

Second, there would be more life created on other worlds throughout the universe. But this creative process was put on hold till the debacle of Satan, Adam and Eve right on earth was sorted out first.
The idea here being that earth would set a 'legal precedent' for any other future life created: Rebel and things go south. Listen to Jehovah and all goes well.

So the Earth isn't the centre but it is first?

Kinda problematic in its own right isn't it.

The universe is 13.72 billion years old.
The earth is 4.6 billion years old.
Humanity is about 100,000 years old.
Jesus appeared 2,000 years ago.

Not exactly rushed off his feet is he, this God character?

Easy dude.
This came from my JW days. You really think they were that rational? :p

But again, the idea is that Jehovah exists 'outside space time', therefore ~14 billion years is nothing to him.

14 billion years is nothing, but he seemed pretty serious about that literal 6 days business.

Also: Lek, sorry, I've got even more work for you...

You mentioned that Christianity is not geocentric, because it's based around Christ and his teachings, not us. I gotta point out that Jesus came to save humanity from sin. Humanity is a noun exclusive to this planet, and
actually, if there is other life in the universe created by God, then the term earthlings might be more apt. And most importantly, if God created other life on other planets, they would not be Christians. Unless Jesus was also born, lived, was crucified, and resurrected all over again throughout the cosmos, then Christianity applies strictly to Earth, and especially because of it's sluggish pace at accepting the grander scale of the universe, I consider it a geocentric philosophy.

(May 25, 2014 at 2:11 am)LostLocke Wrote:

(May 25, 2014 at 1:26 am)max-greece Wrote: So the Earth isn't the centre but it is first?

Kinda problematic in its own right isn't it.

The universe is 13.72 billion years old.
The earth is 4.6 billion years old.
Humanity is about 100,000 years old.
Jesus appeared 2,000 years ago.

Not exactly rushed off his feet is he, this God character?

Easy dude.
This came from my JW days. You really think they were that rational? :p

But again, the idea is that Jehovah exists 'outside space time', therefore ~14 billion years is nothing to him.

I know its not what you currently believe - it was just a knew jerk reaction - no aggressive intent.

Of course - your response does raise the question - to a being for whom 14 billion years means nothing - what the fuck could he ever hope to understand about us? We have less in common with him than we do with an amoeba. Square that with "made in his image."

(May 25, 2014 at 2:46 am)topher Wrote: You mentioned that Christianity is not geocentric, because it's based around Christ and his teachings, not us. I gotta point out that Jesus came to save humanity from sin. Humanity is a noun exclusive to this planet, and actually, if there is other life in the universe created by God, then the term earthlings might be more apt. And most importantly, if God created other life on other planets, they would not be Christians. Unless Jesus was also born, lived, was crucified, and resurrected all over again throughout the cosmos, then Christianity applies strictly to Earth, and especially because of it's sluggish pace at accepting the grander scale of the universe, I consider it a geocentric philosophy.

That reminds me of Perelandra by C.S. Lewis.

The Adam and Eve of Perelandra are humanoids who live on floating rafts of vegetation and there is only one mountain which is fixed land. They have been forbidden by a being who represents Jesus in the story to spend a night there. Weston, the villain, has been possessed by a demonic entity who tries to tempt the woman into disobeying. The hero, Ransom, defeats him so the fall isn't repeated. This means that the descendants of Perelandra's Adam and Eve won't be in need of redemption.

If God created other beings in the universe in his own image, would they need to be redeemed by Jesus if their equivalents of Adam and Eve didn't disobey? They'll still be living in their planets' versions of Eden.

(May 24, 2014 at 11:49 pm)LostLocke Wrote: OK, gonna go back to my JW years for this one.

The idea is that the universe is so vast for 2 possible (and very likely both) reasons....

First, in the original perfect world, man would live forever, giving him enough time to eventually develop the technology needed to reach far into space.

Second, there would be more life created on other worlds throughout the universe. But this creative process was put on hold till the debacle of Satan, Adam and Eve right on earth was sorted out first.
The idea here being that earth would set a 'legal precedent' for any other future life created: Rebel and things go south. Listen to Jehovah and all goes well.

That might sound reasonable but from a Biblical pov it's nonsense. The Biblical fairy tale clearly states that man was given dominion over Earth so it seems that we will be stuck here. It also says that Jews will be stuck in the area known as Israel and that all of the Gentiles will become their slaves. So if you want to make a case for humanity going to other planets you're going to have to dump the fairy tale.

(May 25, 2014 at 1:01 am)Lek Wrote: The bible does say that God created the earth for mankind and we are his most important creation here, but it doesn't say we are his greatest creation anywhere. For one thing the bible says we are below the angels. Who knows how many beings he created throughout the universe. I don't see where the vastness of the universe would raise a red flag for christians. He's no more or less God, whether he created just our solar system or an infinitely larger universe, or if he created any other beings whom he also loves. Christianity is anything but geocentric as the christian's life is to revolve around Christ, not ourselves. We are to give up our own desires for God's desire for us.

It's all in Genesis 1:28 which says:

"God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.""

Man is God's greatest creation, even greater than the angels. Why? Because the angels have no choice but to obey God. Man has free will. He has a choice of either obeying or disobeying God, and when he chooses, out of his own free will, to obey God, he is greater than the angels. The Qur'an confirms this in Surat At-Tīn [95:4] which says:

"We have certainly created man in the best of stature;"

The best of molds. And in Surat Al-'A`rāf [7:11]:

"And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated."

Both the Bible and the Qur'an say that man was God's greatest creation. Who says it wasn't? Lek.

It is also mentioned in Ephesians 2:10 as "work of art" or masterpiece. "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

(May 25, 2014 at 12:50 pm)Ksa Wrote: It's all in Genesis 1:28 which says:

"God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.""

Man is God's greatest creation, even greater than the angels. Why? Because the angels have no choice but to obey God. Man has free will. He has a choice of either obeying or disobeying God, and when he chooses, out of his own free will, to obey God, he is greater than the angels. The Qur'an confirms this in Surat At-Tīn [95:4] which says:

"We have certainly created man in the best of stature;"

The best of molds. And in Surat Al-'A`rāf [7:11]:

"And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated."

Both the Bible and the Qur'an say that man was God's greatest creation. Who says it wasn't? Lek.

It is also mentioned in Ephesians 2:10 as "work of art" or masterpiece. "For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Yes he created man in his image and to rule over the earth and created him lower than the angels. Psalm 8:4-5
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?[a]
5 You have made them[b] a little lower than the angels[c]
and crowned them[d] with glory and honor.
I don't know about the quran, but the bible never mentions that mankind was the greatest creation in the universe or was to rule over the entire universe.

---

(May 25, 2014 at 1:55 am)topher Wrote: Before the discovery that the Earth was indeed a planet, floating in space, it was believed the Earth was the only place you could really "be". It only made sense to say that the Earth is everything in "our world", most likely due to the spread of religion. A God or Gods, in the imperceptible Heavens, looking down upon the Earth. Pretty standard stuff for theism. Then, with the invention and improvement of the telescope, we were able to determine there are other worlds out there, orbiting our sun. Then, we found out that the Sun is just a star, and there are countless other solar systems out there. And then, we learned that all these billions stars form a galaxy. Then, we even learned that that there are as many galaxies in the universe as there are stars in a galaxy!

And throughout all of this discovery, the religious side's reaction was always:

"Okay, so maybe there are other planets, but there aren't other solar systems! Why would God do that?"

"Okay, so maybe there are other solar systems, but there aren't other galaxies! Why would God do that?"

And now we have "Okay, so maybe there are other galaxies, but there aren't other universes! Why would God do that?"

It is clear that these beliefs were created using the knowledge of the time, and that as more and more information comes our way, religious people will need to do more and more mental gymnastics in order to comply with popular science, just as they have done for the last 2000 years.


Moving on to the possibility of more of God's creations throughout the cosmos.

Were they created before or after us? What happens if they sin/fall from grace? Are they damned for all eternity the same as we were? Would/could God deliver his son/another son to their world to pay for their sins, even though the Bible says Jesus was his only son?

Questions like this are why outlandish speculations like these usually have no general consensus amongst Christians.

I really don't need to do any mental gymnastics here. The bible doesn't talk about creatures on others planets or multiple universes. Your question concerning whether or not creatures on other planets would sin and how they would be saved are things to ponder, but that's all we can do. I think that God, who is almighty and omnipotent, can surely figure that out. If we ever run into some aliens, then we can discuss that with them at that time.

I don't know that you've moved the question away from the concept of earth being the spiritual center. Maybe the rest of the universe is sterile rock and plasma; maybe it isn't. At this point, we just don't know. Until we have a better idea about what conditions are necessary for the origin of life as we know it, we really don't have a sound basis for speculating on the odds of life as we know it occurring elsewhere in the universe. Given that, comparisons like Drake's equation are just a crapshoot. What is your attachment to the notion, in certain religions, that life here on earth, specifically human life, is special? For all we know, it may well indeed be. Probably not, but until we actually know, what's the point in getting out a bugle and doing a dance?

(May 25, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Lek Wrote: Yes he created man in his image and to rule over the earth and created him lower than the angels. Psalm 8:4-5
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?[a]
5 You have made them[b] a little lower than the angels[c]
and crowned them[d] with glory and honor.
I don't know about the quran, but the bible never mentions that mankind was the greatest creation in the universe or was to rule over the entire universe.

Ok but what is the context of that? If I say humans are lower than the birds, does it mean inferior? No, it means beneath them. The birds fly in the sky and the humans walk the earth beneath. It points out to a geographical location and not a rank lol.

(May 24, 2014 at 9:52 pm)topher Wrote: Heliocentrism has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt, and even Christians accept this as fact.

It's a bit of a nitpick, but most Christians accept it. I have run into a few on a Christian forum that still believe in geocentrism. To get there, they also have to categorically reject gravity. Yeah, it's pretty weird.

Other than that, I do agree with your OP. The idea that all of this exists just for us is selfish and vain.