(May 27, 2014 at 5:14 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: They should be given to normal people.

They are.

(May 27, 2014 at 5:41 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(May 27, 2014 at 5:14 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: They should be given to normal people.

They are.

No they're not. The four year old probably can probably point out the abnormality in this. He used to have a mother, now he has two fathers. How come?

Really, the lengths some people go to prove others that an apple is actually a pear...
Besides, the children were the offspring of Gypsies. Its too much for these soft, gentle people to handle. They'll probably end up getting killed.
I was saying to "normal people". They should be given to other Gypsies. They usually don't complain about having a few more hands around to do some hustlin'.

Mehmet: first define 'normal'.

(May 27, 2014 at 5:54 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Mehmet: first define 'normal'.

The normal way of things that were done until today. The concept of family.
Since children can only be produced via coitus of a man and a woman, it has been assumed the norm that the people who made them should be the ones to raise them.
And in the case of adoptions, the same norm of a father and a mother has been applied because its the normal way to do things.
Why is it so hard to comprehend, or rather, to accept?

It's not hard.

(May 27, 2014 at 6:16 pm)Stimbo Wrote: It's not hard.

Then why do you argue on what it is? The norm is to have a family that consists of a father, mother and children. This is the way that has been accepted for millenia, mainly due to the reason that children actually arise from the union of a man and a woman, so it is logical to set the norm based on the union of a man and a woman.
Not the many other possible abnormal combinations that people seem to come up with nowadays.

(May 27, 2014 at 5:59 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(May 27, 2014 at 5:54 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Mehmet: first define 'normal'.

The normal way of things that were done until today. The concept of family.
Since children can only be produced via coitus of a man and a woman, it has been assumed the norm that the people who made them should be the ones to raise them.
And in the case of adoptions, the same norm of a father and a mother has been applied because its the normal way to do things.
Why is it so hard to comprehend, or rather, to accept?

mehmet, normal, nowadays isn't that.
Normal is a loving family.
Abnormal is what those kids had: a brutal family and little prospects of them becoming anything more than delinquents.

Many kids, nowadays, are raised by single parents, and yet.... I see no one claiming that's wrong or abnormal.... I see no one forcing people to stay together, so they raise the kids properly.... why? Because it wouldn't work!
Does it work with single parents? more or less....

Why would it work any less if there are two parents of the same gender?
What's the fear, here? As far as I see it, the only "problem" the kid will have is that it will grow up to be fully tolerant of gay people.
Some may claim there's an increased chance that the kid will become gay itself... I haven't seen any studies hinting in that direction (nor any other direction), but a person's sexuality doesn't seem to hinge on social pressures.... it seems to be mostly genetic, so I see no reason to fear such outcome.

The gay couple, at least for now, may tend to encourage the kid (when the time comes) to explore his/her sexuality to the fullest, in order to find the best partner possible... but that doesn't mean that the kid will become gay. These people tend to be the most respectful of others' sexualities, so I foresee little to no trouble in the kids future, on that subject.


On every other subject, two parents are always better than one.

Why is it, do you suppose, that "people seem to come up with" these "abnormal combinations"?

(May 27, 2014 at 6:34 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why is it, do you suppose, that "people seem to come up with" these "abnormal combinations"?

Because they want to.
And well, that's their business, but the familial institution is another matter. Its too important to society to be changed according to the whims and fancies of "sexual minorities".

Similarly, I don't think that gays do have like...an instinctive desire to have children, else they'd mate with women to have them. For them, a kid is nothing more than an item of prestige, a pet.
"Look, we're gays and we are parents."
They're treated as a curiosity by many, to be honest.

Quote:mehmet, normal, nowadays isn't that.
Normal is a loving family.

You don't define normal via emotions.
You define it via reality and facts. The fact is, the norm of the familial institution and parenting were long defined on the basis of human biology. All children are born from women. It is only logical that they are raised by women. The duty of a man used to be to provide for both the woman and the child. Nowadays, though, the norm shifted towards both parents working, mainly due to the changes in economy, one parent is usually not enough to support the family, while providing their children with a future.
But the norms regarding parentage have not changed, nor will they ever change.
A child needs a man and a woman to be conceived, and a child needs both a father and a mother to be raised as a well-adjusted member of society.

Quote:Abnormal is what those kids had: a brutal family and little prospects of them becoming anything more than delinquents.

One wrong does not justify another.

Quote:Many kids, nowadays, are raised by single parents, and yet.... I see no one claiming that's wrong or abnormal....

I am. Its not only abnormal, its not in the best interests of neither the children, nor the parents. Single parents often have difficulties handling the children, all the while working to support them.

Quote:I see no one forcing people to stay together, so they raise the kids properly....

Actually children are one of the reasons why some marriages keep on going. People actually realize that their kids are more important than whatever trivial problems they have with another, so they try to work it out, for the sake of the children. And I'd say that no child of divorce is happy to see their parents split up. No one is happy to see their father bring in a "new mom" into the house or otherwise...
Most of the time, when a marriage is not hampered by actions of a spouse that actually violate the marital contract, such as unfaithfulness or domestic abuse, people with children should display selflessness and try to work their problems out, if not for their own sakes, but for the sake of their children.

Quote:Does it work with single parents? more or less....

No, it works less. It is inefficient.

Quote:Why would it work any less if there are two parents of the same gender?

There are too many reasons to count. The first is, the children are raised in an environment that they should not be raised in. In a hypothetical world, where there are no kids open for adoption, the idea of gays being parents would be even more absurd than it already is. Its as though as to raise a tiger in an apartment.

But we live in a world where there are kids in orphanages, and these are open to adoption by people who would like to look after them.
Given this, the kids will very soon realize that there is something wrong with this, and they will become confused. The confusion will eventually lead to further things. Not to mention the stigma that a child will most certainly face from other members of society.
By actually advocating this, you're sacrificing these children so that gays can feel better about themselves.

Quote: As far as I see it, the only "problem" the kid will have is that it will grow up to be fully tolerant of gay people.

From the way I see it, I'm sure the kid may very well grow up to hate gays.

Quote:Some may claim there's an increased chance that the kid will become gay itself... I haven't seen any studies hinting in that direction (nor any other direction), but a person's sexuality doesn't seem to hinge on social pressures....

Well, that is not my point, though I'm sure that the gays will try to raise the child as their "own" in very much the same way normal people do.
Normal people instinctively want their children to be like them.
And so do gays, I presume. Its really nothing more than wishful thinking to assume that gays will allow their child to freely pick their sexual orientation.
Not that it will, as you said, make the child gay, but it will probably make the child hate his/her parents even more later on.

Quote:The gay couple, at least for now, may tend to encourage the kid (when the time comes) to explore his/her sexuality to the fullest, in order to find the best partner possible... but that doesn't mean that the kid will become gay.

Well, that's another thing. This whole wishful thinking is just hurting to the bone.
The appointed time, as you have said, will probably come earlier than with other kids, as I'm sure that gay parents will have a lot of difficulties explaining their "children" how babies are made.
And how they were forced to adopt him/her because they couldn't make their own.
The children will probably figure the rest out by themselves.
Its really not a good place for a kid to grow up. I'd say they're better off in an orphanage.

Quote:These people tend to be the most respectful of others' sexualities, so I foresee little to no trouble in the kids future, on that subject.

Again, a lot of wishful thinking. However, that's not even my point. I'm not concerned whether they will force the child to be gay like themselves or not.
The children will probably emulate what they see from their parents early on. Like, a boy having a crush on boys in elementary school.
Yeah, the epitome of tolerance and progress.

Quote:On every other subject, two parents are always better than one.

They have to be parents first. Gay people do not qualify.

(May 27, 2014 at 7:20 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Similarly, I don't think that gays do have like...an instinctive desire to have children, else they'd mate with women to have them. For them, a kid is nothing more than an item of prestige, a pet.
"Look, we're gays and we are parents."
They're treated as a curiosity by many, to be honest.

Well, by you anyway.