(June 6, 2014 at 9:08 am)mickiel Wrote: As far as supervenience , I think things can occur unexpectantly , but if it was deliberately done, that is different. In example, if I walk down a street and find a dime, I think nothing of it. If I walk further and find 3 dimes on the ground, I can begin to suspect things. If I walk further and find 100 dimes on the ground, yet each standing on their edges, perfectly balanced, then I can KNOW that this was deliberately done.

1. You clearly haven't looked up supervenience. Stop faking your way through discussions. I was trying to help you AVOID looking dumb by telling you what to look up.

2. If you were BORN INTO a universe with standing dimes, then they wouldn't be considered miraculous by you, any more than gravity. They'd just be another thing you didn't understand.

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(June 6, 2014 at 9:26 am)mickiel Wrote: There is evidence that cats have 90% of our genes, cows 80%, a mouse 75%, and chickens and fruitflys 60%. In my view, that is evidence that a creator used the same ingredients in many of his creations.

This is evidence, but not for what you want it to be. Why would a God designing Adam and Eve need to recycle fly or fish DNA? He created all the heavens, with billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, but suddenly he needs to start recycling bug parts to make people? That's suprisingly lazy.

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(June 6, 2014 at 9:57 am)mickiel Wrote: The evidence I like using is " Civilization", excuse me for using caps again, a habit. I think some 30-50,00 years ago, god created adam, the first human he gave consciousness. Knowing that is not accepted here, lets just say whenever civilization began to emerge. I think it emerged BECAUSE god gave those humans consciousness. He did not give it fully to primordial humans.

In what universe are you not Christian? There are three Judeochristian religions, so if you believe in that mythology, you must be either Jewish, Christian or Muslim. No sincerely non-religious person starts quoting scripture to support their non-religious ideas.

(June 6, 2014 at 1:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 9:08 am)mickiel Wrote: As far as supervenience , I think things can occur unexpectantly , but if it was deliberately done, that is different. In example, if I walk down a street and find a dime, I think nothing of it. If I walk further and find 3 dimes on the ground, I can begin to suspect things. If I walk further and find 100 dimes on the ground, yet each standing on their edges, perfectly balanced, then I can KNOW that this was deliberately done.

1. You clearly haven't looked up supervenience. Stop faking your way through discussions. I was trying to help you AVOID looking dumb by telling you what to look up.

2. If you were BORN INTO a universe with standing dimes, then they wouldn't be considered miraculous by you, any more than gravity. They'd just be another thing you didn't understand.

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(June 6, 2014 at 9:26 am)mickiel Wrote: There is evidence that cats have 90% of our genes, cows 80%, a mouse 75%, and chickens and fruitflys 60%. In my view, that is evidence that a creator used the same ingredients in many of his creations.

This is evidence, but not for what you want it to be. Why would a God designing Adam and Eve need to recycle fly or fish DNA? He created all the heavens, with billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, but suddenly he needs to start recycling bug parts to make people? That's suprisingly lazy.

Well, finally one of you at least acknowledges some trace of what could be evidence; goodness.

I think the fossil record is evidence that god created humans as humans and apes as apes, there was no slow transition period;
http://www.whybelieveingod.net/thefossilrecord.htm

(June 6, 2014 at 1:28 pm)mickiel Wrote: Because the bible is a proven historical book, and biblical archaeology is yet another proof of god.

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Complete rubbish.

The Bible gets some things correct, historically. And it gets many things wrong.

I could list them if you like.

Same with archeology. I could list these too.

By the way. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey get a lot of history and archeology right, too. Heinrich Schliemann used stories in them to find Troy in 1858, which was thought to be pure myth before that.

Does the finding of a real Troy prove that Zeus existed?

(June 6, 2014 at 1:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote: This is evidence, but not for what you want it to be. Why would a God designing Adam and Eve need to recycle fly or fish DNA? He created all the heavens, with billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, but suddenly he needs to start recycling bug parts to make people? That's suprisingly lazy.

Right, commonality of DNA is evidence of evolution. If we all had unique, non-overlapping DNA, that would be something.

And we share about 25% of genes with rice and 18% with Baker's yeast. God sure was frugal! Fucking plant DNA in our bodies! Plants and fungus! Jesus, what was he thinking?

(June 6, 2014 at 1:39 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 1:28 pm)mickiel Wrote: There are many scriptures, but I did not intend on using the bible; why do that here? Anyway one is in psalms 104:1-2 it says god clothed himself with honour and majesty, and gave himself light, or covered himself; which means he created those parts of himself. If he already had it before, what need would he have to give it to himself again? So this scripture, and others like it reveal that god actually created parts of himself.

And I am giving the evidence that I have as I go; that's all I can do. If others don't view it as evidence, what can I do?

Wait, if you didn't intend on using the Bible, and you have many scriptures to pull from, why was the first example out of your bag a Bible verse? You say you're not Christian, but all signs point to it. How about another 'scripture' verse that's non-Biblical that would point to '[G]god' creating parts of himself? Or how about explaining how this god creating parts of himself is a better explanation with better evidence than a universe always existing? I'll be the first to tell you that I have no idea how the universe came to be or if it was always there. I am happy to not have all the answers right now. You are claiming to know the answers despite a profound lack of evidence.
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We know from carbon dating and the laws of entropy that the universe has not always existed.

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(June 6, 2014 at 2:03 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 1:28 pm)mickiel Wrote: Because the bible is a proven historical book, and biblical archaeology is yet another proof of god.

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Complete rubbish.

The Bible gets some things correct, historically. And it gets many things wrong.

I could list them if you like.

Same with archeology. I could list these too.

By the way. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey get a lot of history and archeology right, too. Heinrich Schliemann used stories in them to find Troy, which was thought to be pure myth before that.

Does the finding of a real Troy prove that Zeus existed?

We found king nebuchadnezzars castle and he was recorded in Daniel 4th chapter of the bible;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II

A stunning find.

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(June 6, 2014 at 2:03 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 1:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote: This is evidence, but not for what you want it to be. Why would a God designing Adam and Eve need to recycle fly or fish DNA? He created all the heavens, with billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, but suddenly he needs to start recycling bug parts to make people? That's suprisingly lazy.

Right, commonality of DNA is evidence of evolution. If we all had unique, non-overlapping DNA, that would be something.

And we share about 25% of genes with rice and 18% with Baker's yeast. God sure was frugal! Fucking plant DNA in our bodies! Plants and fungus! Jesus, what was he thinking?

He was at least thinking, evolution and nature cannot even think.

There are working, natural explanations for ears, Pluto, the origin of stars, eyes...everything you say "points to a god".

Fun fact: eyes have evolved, independently, at least 40 times, buy maybe as many as 60 times. Turns out they're not hard to evolve at all!

So, seriously, man. I know you're new here - and really outnumbered. But do you actually understand what an "argument from ignorance" or "god of the gaps" is?

(June 6, 2014 at 2:03 pm)mickiel Wrote: We know from carbon dating and the laws of entropy that the universe has not always existed.

Mickiel, Mickiel, Mickiel -- words of wisdom -- when in a hole, stop digging!

Carbon dating is not in any way, shape or form applicable to dating anything older than 50-60k years. That's it.

Quote:Radiocarbon dating (or simply carbon dating) is a radiometric dating technique that uses the decay of carbon-14 (14
C) to estimate the age of organic materials, such as wood and leather, up to about 58,000 to 62,000 years Before Present (BP, present defined as CE 1950).[1] Carbon dating was presented to the world by Willard Libby in 1949, for which he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

I sincerely doubt you have even an inkling of the "laws of entropy". Do tell how the laws of entropy work before Planck time? Cosmologists of the world are dying to know!

Quote:Before a time classified as a Planck time, 10-43 seconds, all of the four fundamental forces are presumed to have been unified into one force. All matter, energy, space and time are presumed to have exploded outward from the original singularity. Nothing is known of this period.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hba...lanck.html

Do you know about Google? It's fucking amazing what you can learn with a few key strokes and mouse clicks.

Jesus H Christ in a sidecar!

(June 6, 2014 at 2:12 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: There are working, natural explanations for ears, Pluto, the origin of stars, eyes...everything you say "points to a god".

Fun fact: eyes have evolved, independently, at least 40 times, buy maybe as many as 60 times. Turns out they're not hard to evolve at all!

So, seriously, man. I know you're new here - and really outnumbered. But do you actually understand what an "argument from ignorance" or "god of the gaps" is?

Yea, its one of you're favorite trump cards that does not work for me, ignorance is one of the main reasons I have learned. And until I see anythingelse worth putting in the gaps, I'll keep putting god in there.

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(June 6, 2014 at 2:12 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: There are working, natural explanations for ears, Pluto, the origin of stars, eyes...everything you say "points to a god".

Fun fact: eyes have evolved, independently, at least 40 times, buy maybe as many as 60 times. Turns out they're not hard to evolve at all!

So, seriously, man. I know you're new here - and really outnumbered. But do you actually understand what an "argument from ignorance" or "god of the gaps" is?

And I am not outnumbered, I'm just getting started; you're going to need those numbers before this is over.

(June 6, 2014 at 2:03 pm)mickiel Wrote: We found king nebuchadnezzars castle and he was recorded in Daniel 4th chapter of the bible;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II

A stunning find.

Yes, I admitted that the Bible gets some things right, historically.

That is not unusual. People alive at the time would include real places and people in their stories. Just like Home did in the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Here's a some things that the Bible gets wrong:

There is zero archeological evidence that Hebrews lived in Egypt or were slaves there.

There is zero evidence that over a million people set up camps anywhere in the Sinai desert, including all the place mentioned in the Bible.

The Bible claims that the Hebrews conquered the Canaanites after emerging from the desert. But all archeological evidence shows that the Hebrews were Canaanites.

"Many of the sites in the story were not inhabited at that time so there was no sign of destruction. Instead, local kings paid tribute to foreign kings in exchange for protection. This is why most villages were unfortified including Jericho, which has been thoroughly excavated and had no walls that could be considered fortifications."

I can keep going...

These are the findings of actual archeologists, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, and others.

(June 6, 2014 at 10:58 am)mickiel Wrote: No, I can't see it. Minds completely unconscious of a god or gods, why and how would consciousness of ideas about a god emerge?

Fixed it for you. You can only have consciousness of something if it exists, and you cannot demonstrate that your god idea represents something that exists.