I come from a very strict long lineage of french roman catholics (up here in Manitoba being french matters, it's basically a recipe for being staunch religious). However despite my extended family being extremely religious my immediate family (mom and dad with us kids) never attended church or anything religious beyond family events. Both my brother and I became hard atheists. Yet most of my family is strict catholic.

As someone who came up in that atmosphere my philosophy has always been that people deserve their own right to choose what they believe in. However I have NEVER known a SINGLE person that has chosen religion from being agnostic or atheist as an adult that can actually make their own decisions. The only religious people I know were indoctrinated since they were under 2 years old to believe in god. And I've known countless people that have turned away from religion in their teens and as a adult.

So the question I pose is whether is if everyone was raised in a secular environment would religion even exist? I fully believe in people's right to choose, if they want to believe in a god they have that right. IF they choose that as a full developed person. NOT having it shoved down their throats as children.

(June 13, 2014 at 9:00 am)Holden Caulfield Wrote: I come from a very strict long lineage of french roman catholics (up here in Manitoba being french matters, it's basically a recipe for being staunch religious). However despite my extended family being extremely religious my immediate family (mom and dad with us kids) never attended church or anything religious beyond family events. Both my brother and I became hard atheists. Yet most of my family is strict catholic.

As someone who came up in that atmosphere my philosophy has always been that people deserve their own right to choose what they believe in. However I have NEVER known a SINGLE person that has chosen religion from being agnostic or atheist as an adult that can actually make their own decisions. The only religious people I know were indoctrinated since they were under 2 years old to believe in god. And I've known countless people that have turned away from religion in their teens and as a adult.

So the question I pose is whether is if everyone was raised in a secular environment would religion even exist? I fully believe in people's right to choose, if they want to believe in a god they have that right. IF they choose that as a full developed person. NOT having it shoved down their throats as children.

As with smoking cigarettes, the addiction is almost always formed earlier in life; probably before 15. You don't find many adults taking up smoking nor do you find many adults turning to religion unless there are extenuating circumstances.

My ex and her extended family are all semi-fundy religious types. Without exception, they all got the addiction young and would state it proudly. Most adults who get the addiction had "broken lives" - drug addicts, criminals, alcoholics and whatnot. I've met very, very few adults who didn't get indoctrinated young or weren't of the "broken" sort.

A while back, I was listening to a religious program on the radio (for the comedy value), and they were talking about how important it was to get the youngin' to Come to Christ before 14 or they would be lost forever.

So, as for your question, if religious indoctrination could be delayed (or eliminated) until over 18 (or better yet 21), I would expect far less people to become addicted.

Like Dawkins said, religious indoctrination of the young is a form of child abuse.

The two main markets for new customers in the belief department are the newly born and the deeply depressed. It very rarely is a rational choice. Almost always it involves an emotional appeal at a time when people are vulnerable.

That said, I think it is fine to respect people's decision about what to believe right up until they try to force it on everyone else through the government.

It should be an adult choice as kids are so easily convinced of anything. My parents are still very strong christians, but if I were to ask them today, why didn't you let me choose instead of taking me to church and telling me to believe in god when I was little, they would tell me that they feared for my spirituality and they didn't want to see me wind up in hell.
To my parents, their faith is the most important thing to them.

For most of the religious, the goal is to pass their beliefs on to as many people.

I look at it as more a cultural thing. I have some atheist friends that come from a jewish background..they don't believe in the religion but they still take part in jewish tradition.

I'd imagine that if you waited until a child turned 17-18 to tell him/her a story about a talking snake...not one would take it seriously.

C S Lewis and Lee Strobel are both well-known educated atheists and authors who converted from atheism to christianity. A woman at my church was raised as an atheist and her family are still atheists.

Lek falls for the "I was an atheist until jesus grabbed my balls" routine with regularity.

I regard most people as terminally full of shit.

My parents promised their children would receive a (Methodist) Christian education when we were baptized. And this was in the 50s and 60s when promises made in church before a crowd were taken damn seriously.

I find some enjoyment as an adult reminding the divorced and remarried "chrisitans" among us of how that 'good old time religion' they seem to crave really worked.

I have NEVER heard of a divorced and remarried "christian" of any stripe ever repudiating a subsequent marriage and then insisting on annulling it and returning to the first marriage. Never, ever, ever.

(June 13, 2014 at 9:00 am)Holden Caulfield Wrote: I come from a very strict long lineage of french roman catholics (up here in Manitoba being french matters, it's basically a recipe for being staunch religious). However despite my extended family being extremely religious my immediate family (mom and dad with us kids) never attended church or anything religious beyond family events. Both my brother and I became hard atheists. Yet most of my family is strict catholic.

As someone who came up in that atmosphere my philosophy has always been that people deserve their own right to choose what they believe in. However I have NEVER known a SINGLE person that has chosen religion from being agnostic or atheist as an adult that can actually make their own decisions. The only religious people I know were indoctrinated since they were under 2 years old to believe in god. And I've known countless people that have turned away from religion in their teens and as a adult.

So the question I pose is whether is if everyone was raised in a secular environment would religion even exist? I fully believe in people's right to choose, if they want to believe in a god they have that right. IF they choose that as a full developed person. NOT having it shoved down their throats as children.

The choice of having or not having a personal religion is as silly as a person needing to make the critical decision in adulthood whether to worship the gods of Greek mythology or not. People should know that they can study and read the various bibles or religious books without devoting their life to any particular one.

Personally, I read Jack and the Beanstalk when I was younger. It would have been silly of me to have to make the decision, when I became an adult, whether I was going to believe that a clumsy giant lived in a castle up in the clouds that might enjoy me for dinner should I ever decide to plant magic beans and climb up there myself out of curiosity and subsequent greed for treasure.

(June 13, 2014 at 10:19 am)ThePinsir Wrote: I'd imagine that if you waited until a child turned 17-18 to tell him/her a story about a talking snake...not one would take it seriously.

The Oatmeal covered this nicely: