Theism and Choice

[Cecelia]

It just hit me today, and maybe it's something all atheists here have known or it's common knowledge. 

Theists often think that we Atheists don't have morals.  You have some people who like to say the terrifying "Well if there is no god, I can rape all I want to!"  Which is terrifying because this person clearly wants to rape someone, but isn't because a 2000 year old book said he shouldn't.  (Well, it doesn't even really say that, but I won't get into that).

Until now, I never really understood why theists think Atheists are immoral.  I mean even when I was a Christian, I never really ascribed to the idea that Atheists are immoral.  Then it hit me:  They think Atheism is something we choose.  Much like they think Homosexuality is a choice (And I think this ties in pretty well).  They believe that we decide at some point in our lives that we don't want to be Christian's any more, and we choose to stop believing in god. 

But Theism and Atheism isn't really a choice anyone actually makes.  Much like Homosexuality isn't a choice someone makes.  People don't say "You know, I'm going to be attracted to the same gender I am."  Just like they don't say "I'm not going to believe in God."  And they don't say "I am going to believe in god."  It's a process that just occurs.  It's not like going to the store and flipping through several religions and then deciding "I'll choose no religion, because then I don't have to live by any rules."  It's more akin to going to a store and flipping through several religions, choosing one for a while, and then when it stops making sense to you giving it up.

I think it is perhaps the biggest barrier between theists and atheists.  The idea that Atheism is a choice (much like it is a barrier for gays and lesbians.)  It automatically makes an assumption about the character of a person and why they believe.  And of course because God wasn't a choice for them -- it was just as natural to them as the idea that the sky is blue-- they get this idea that it's the same for everyone.  That god comes naturally.    This is in large part because religion has become a big part of culture, and religion tends to be shared with young children.

If more people understood that Atheism isn't really a choice -- and theism isn't either-- I think we might see more of an understanding between both groups.  I mean you can't really choose what to believe.  (Pascal's wager is a famous example of thinking atheism is a choice.  I mean there's plenty of problems with Pascal's Wager, but the biggest is that it assumes that people choose what they believe, rather than it being a much bigger and longer process)

You can't choose to believe in Unicorns.  Go ahead, try.  No matter how much you want to believe in Unicorns, you most likely can't.  Same goes for Leprechauns.  You can't suddenly say "I want leprechauns to be real, so I'm going to believe in them."  It doesn't really work.  It's like sexuality -- you can't choose what you're attracted to.  Nobody wakes up one morning and says "You know, everyone else likes the opposite gender, so I'm going to be different and like the same gender."  Being gay isn't a choice, and neither is what you believe really. 

For me at least, when I started losing my faith it was a gradual process.  My belief in god weakened over time, and I never decided "I'm going to stop believing."  Instead I stopped going to church, and then stopped praying, and then eventually stopped believing.  It was just as natural to not believe in god as it was for me to believe.  It wasn't any sort of sin, or desire for there to be no god.  I mean I'm not close to a perfect person.  But I didn't stop believing in god because I didn't want god to exist.  I mean if the Christian god did exist, I think I'd probably hate him because from my experience with reading about him, he sounds like a terrible god.  Or rather I suppose I should say that I'd hate the things he is said to have done.  But that wasn't really a choice either.  So many things in life don't come down to choices.  You don't suddenly decide "I really hate bubblegum ice cream, but I've got a half gallon of the stuff. So I'm going to like it."  It just doesn't work.  You can choose not to buy bubblegum ice cream (I love gum, you can't blame me for trying the stuff once!  I can't help that I'm a chewaholic)  but you can't choose to like it.

[Athene]

Yes. Some theists don't take an individual's so-called choice to reject their all-powerful and yummy Goodness well at all. They find it highly offensive and quite sickening. And good luck attempting to explain otherwise; in one ear and out the other it goes. At best, they'll concede that you're simply a know-nothing who doesn't understand  the Bible. "You didn't believe right!". 

Haha. Yeah, okay. 
That must be it.

[robvalue]

I agree totally. It's a point I find myself making in almost every discussion with a theist at some point. I've come to the conclusion that if the theist thinks that belief or non belief is a choice, then actually they don't really believe. They are choosing to say they believe. If you actually do believe something, there is no choice required or indeed possible. I can't stop myself believing something any more than I can choose to believe something (without a reason to do so).

The thing that is a choice is whether or not to join a religion, given that you think it is "true". For many theists, they literally cannot seem to understand this. They assume belief leads logically and inevitably to joining the religion. It certainly does not. Atheism is simply a reaction to reality; not being part of religion is a position I would stick to regardless of whether I'm an atheist, a theist, or someone who believes in Yahweh.

Yes, many theists have been brainwashed into the idea that morality comes from religion/God. They sometimes think they would be out of control monsters if it weren't for their religion. At least 90% of the time I'd guess they are completely mistaken. They've just been convinced it's true, as part of the package. What religion is really doing is taking credit for people's natural morality by insisting it's so amazing it must have a magical explanation.

The big problem with some religious theists finding atheists immoral is when they compare atheists to some sort of dogmatic objective list of "morality" their religion gives them. Against such a list, totally harmless things can be judged to be "immoral". So basically, if we're not just following the rules of their religion (why would we?) we are immoral. It's entirely circular, and has nothing to do with morality. It's blind obedience. Morality is only genuine when you think for yourself. Otherwise you are not considering what actually makes something moral or immoral.