(June 19, 2014 at 6:11 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 19, 2014 at 6:07 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't know what Quran you are reading, but I think the Quran says that Islam is the only true religion, Allah is the only true god.

You don't know. .but many Muslims know how to read the Quran, and many Muslims have realized that today's Islam have abandoned the Quran. . and many are returning to the true Islam. The true leader of Islam will change the Muslim Ummah believe in a split second, just as like what happen during Mecca and Medina, from peaceful Islam, to aggressive Islam. I believe it will all starts between 2017 and 2025. Just my prediction. . .

Lmao. Nice. What makes you so sure that your interpretation of the Quran is right and all the other Muslims are wrong?

(June 19, 2014 at 6:15 pm)Losty Wrote: Lmao. Nice. What makes you so sure that your interpretation of the Quran is right and all the other Muslims are wrong?

The link I gave you from Muslim's scholar (refer here). . and Muslim Scholars know that Allah is not equivalent to God and Islam is "Deen", and not a religion (madhab). . Nobody criticizes on that book because they know that it is the truth, but many don't say it because they used terms that can easily describe Islam. They used common terms, for basic understanding. When people learn the advance Islam, they will learn about the difference, the true nature of Allah and the "deen" of Islam. There is no issue at all.

So that part about killing non believers...that was just a joke right?

(June 19, 2014 at 6:31 pm)Losty Wrote: So that part about killing non believers...that was just a joke right?

They are not killing the non believers because the Quran says Muslim must believe the Torah, Gospel and the Psalm. No one can be a Muslim if they don't believe in that Books or if they reject Jesus or Jesuism. Allah even command Muslim to say “I believe in all that God has sent down from Scripture, and . . . God is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds (rituals). There is no argument between us and you" (42.15). Do you realize what this means? Therefore, there is no issue of "Religion", "Rituals" or "God" in the doctrine of Islam. Real Muslim don't "attaches the importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group" of people. The issue about killing the disbelievers is about killing the sectarians, the hypocrites in all religion. It is those who are promoting hatred and war in the name of their religion or sect. Those who oppose peace and harmony in the society, those who oppose the unity within diversity.

If one carefully studied the Quran, they will find out that the doctrine of Islam is equal to secularism or atheism and they jihad against the sectarians and who is promoting sectarianism in the society, ie. the hypocrites in every religion. The difference between Islam and Atheism is that atheism unfairly criticizes other religions and don't give freedom of religion and traditions. Islam gave unconditional freedom of religion but they jihad for unity within diversity. They don't criticize or unfairly criticize other religions, but they fight for balance and justice. However, both have no believe in "God" and "religion". This is the true doctrine of Islam from the Quran, it is not about "submission", but it is about "assimilation" with the society and other religious values. It is not a religion, but it is more equal to the Code of Ethic/Law, for the unity within diversity.

Since the muslims think that they have the right to engage in violence against the hypocrites why don't the hypocrites destroy the muslims first as a self-defense tactic?

There is no right to attack in Islam
There is only the right to defence

Permission [to fight] has been given to those
who are being fought
because they were wronged.
(22.39) (refer here)

Maybe in today's world, it is the self defence against the manipulation of the money system etc, ie. against property
and attacking the Muslim's countries etc. .

The believers are but brothers (49.10)

The subject matter, scope and weight may differ, upon many factors.

(June 19, 2014 at 4:51 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Atheism is only becoming a true non religious group when they respect peoples' traditions and able to give unconditional freedom of religion and traditions. Otherwise, it is sectarianism, and it is a religion. The ideology of "I am right, they are all wrong". It is bigotism.

I think ideology is a better word to use than religion. One of the definitions of Ideology is -

Quote:The set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual:

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities but if people start attaching ideas to it they could turn it into an ideology.

(June 19, 2014 at 11:49 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: There is no right to attack in Islam
There is only the right to defence

"Permission has been given to those
who are being fought because they were wronged."
(22.39)

This is the danger with basing your morals or laws on vague, ancient script like this that can be interpreted or bent to suit your own ideal. That one simple sentence can mean anything goes for those who want to kill because nobody can know what the original author intended the scope of 'wronged' to be.

Boko Haram may well see this verse as all the permission they need to slaughter an estimated 10,000 over the last 10 years. They have been wronged by the West/Christianity because Western education is wrong to them. That's all they need to justify their actions to themselves and what they are doing is supported by the Quran. Who are we to argue with their interpretation?

They have been 'wronged' because Western education is threatening their ideals.

Whatever justification for Jihad that ISIS have concocted from the Quran I don't know but their blood thirsty army will be driven along with some warped romantic feeling that they are still fighting Muhammads battle.

There's little you can do to stop this unless there were a 'pope' of Islam that every believer respected actually started to lay down some reform of the fucking Quran. And there's as much chance of that happening as me becoming pope. Islam is way too fragmented in its following and noone wants to take overall responsibility for the cult.

Lets face it, if someone were to start speaking out and trying to take a stance of 'world head' of Islam and reform its interpretation for more peaceful means, their life expectancy would be 12 hours at best.

"There is no right to attack in Islam
There is only the right to defence"

All fine and dandy unless your perception is you are being attacked constantly and have been for the past 1400 years.

(June 17, 2014 at 4:00 am)ska88 Wrote: Hi

Its a weird title coming from a muslim..

But God said that we should fix our problems first!!

JUST go for this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO5oSKWdL3A

This video assumes things about nonbelievers that are not warranted. Just because someone doesn't share your faith doesn't mean they are lost and need Muslims or other believers to save them.

You don't see it, but most of us here have very very good reasons to reject God and faith. Many of us were even believers at some point in life as well. We do not lack belief just because we're not smart enough to see what you supposedly see.

(June 20, 2014 at 5:40 am)TubbyTubby Wrote: This is the danger with basing your morals or laws on vague, ancient script like this that can be interpreted or bent to suit your own ideal. That one simple sentence can mean anything goes for those who want to kill because nobody can know what the original author intended the scope of 'wronged' to be.

It is clear. .

And if you punish [an enemy]
punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed
But if you are patient
it is better for those who are patient
16.126

There are other guidelines, and what I mean is that it will depend on the facts and causes of action, the parties, the mechanism or system used etc. Boko already is out of this issue, "they have been 'wronged' because Western education is threatening their ideals"?

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(June 20, 2014 at 7:15 am)Irrational Wrote: This video assumes things about nonbelievers that are not warranted. Just because someone doesn't share your faith doesn't mean they are lost and need Muslims or other believers to save them.

You don't see it, but most of us here have very very good reasons to reject God and faith. Many of us were even believers at some point in life as well. We do not lack belief just because we're not smart enough to see what you supposedly see.

The Islam from the Quran gave "unconditional freedom of religion or ways of life" in these 3 areas:

1. The nature of their Texts and Belief;
2. The nature of their Rituals;
3. The nature of their God.

No one can criticize, mocking or dispute them on these issues. No dispute at all, and as long it does not cause injustice to the society as a whole. This is the foundation for "unity within diversity" and peaceful society.

Quote:For that, you shall preach and be upright (living justly balanced)
as you have been commanded
and do not follow their wishes (for sectarianism). And say:

“I believe in all that God has sent down from Scripture, <- nature of their texts and belief
and I was commanded to be with justice with you. <- Muslim's concern, freedom of religion, balance and justice. Arbitration, mediation, conciliation.
God is our Lord and your Lord. <- nature of their God
We have our deeds and you have your deeds. <- nature of their rituals/practices
There is no argument between us and you. <- unity within diversity
God will gather us all together, and to Him is the ultimate destiny.”
42.15

This is the main message of the Quran because the issue of freedom of religion is the issue of all Prophets, and many have been killed and oppressed etc. Those who cannot agree or intentionally violating on these areas are the "Hypocrites" or "Disbelievers", ie. the "Kafiroon". If there are oppression, they're done; "And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." (2.191). Unconditional freedom of religion and ways of life is one of the higher importance in the doctrine of Islam. It is the foundation for "unity within diversity", for peace and harmony.

If any members of the society wish to question on this issues, the must debate in a way that is best.

Quote:And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best
29.46

Invite to the way of your Lord
with wisdom
and good instruction
and argue with them in a way that is best.
16.125

They must identify the facts and investigate the true nature of other religions and avoid using fallacy etc. The debate must be based on finding similarities, and not on finding differences, ie. ijma or consensus of opinions.

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(June 20, 2014 at 4:53 am)Confused Ape Wrote: Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities but if people start attaching ideas to it they could turn it into an ideology.

The doctrine of Islam from the Quran is about to absolutely reject God and Deity
Allah is not God or Deity.
Upon further understanding, it is the concept of "duality", and it is "Shirk" (forgiven).

Allah says "no one knows" what is Allah (3.7, 112), it is futile and Muslim should be busy with their practical life, ie. the "Deen" of Islam.
This "Deen" is not about Allah, it is about human beings. Allah does not need the "Deen".