(June 21, 2014 at 9:15 pm)Losty Wrote: Then you are not a Muslim.

Why ?

(June 21, 2014 at 9:10 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: The "possibility" is the "issue"
"God exists" is the "subject matter"
The "subject matter" must be existed before anyone can raise the issue "whether or not it's impossible that a god exists", ie. "god exists"

For example. . .

whether or not it's impossible John kill a man

The "possibility" of killing or not is the "issue"
"John kill a man" and the "act of killing" is the "subject matter", "facts of discussion"
Therefore, before the "possibility" of murder arises, "John" must first be existed, the accused must be existed.
People cannot discuss the possibility if there is no "subject matter". The possibility of what ?

It's not the same. John must exist to discuss the possibility of killing John.

John does not have to exist to discuss the possibility that John exists. All you would need is a concept of the existence of John.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:17 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 21, 2014 at 9:15 pm)Losty Wrote: Then you are not a Muslim.

Why ?

Because a Muslim by definition is one who submits to God. You cannot meet the criteria of the definition if you do not believe in god.

I already said this once and you responded with word salad. If you want to have a conversation about it you could try talking like a normal person. When I get word salad all I can say back is crunch.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:18 pm)Losty Wrote: It's not the same. John must exist to discuss the possibility of killing John.

John does not have to exist to discuss the possibility that John exists. All you would need is a concept of the existence of John.

Okay, maybe that's make sense to you . . but it is not making any sense to me.

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(June 21, 2014 at 9:18 pm)Losty Wrote: Because a Muslim by definition is one who submits to God. You cannot meet the criteria of the definition if you do not believe in god.

What is God ? Please prove. . .

(June 21, 2014 at 9:21 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 21, 2014 at 9:18 pm)Losty Wrote: It's not the same. John must exist to discuss the possibility of killing John.

John does not have to exist to discuss the possibility that John exists. All you would need is a concept of the existence of John.

Okay, maybe that's make sense to you . . but it is not making any sense to me.

Do you believe in the existence of unicorns?

(June 21, 2014 at 9:23 pm)Losty Wrote: Do you believe in the existence of unicorns?

I believe whatever I see with my sense perception, maybe. . after inspecting the object etc. The Quran prohibit me from thinking or discussing the nonsense, things that cannot be proven through facts.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:21 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 21, 2014 at 9:18 pm)Losty Wrote: Because a Muslim by definition is one who submits to God. You cannot meet the criteria of the definition if you do not believe in god.

What is God ? Please prove. . .

I am an atheist not a Muslim. I don't believe in any gods. If you want to call yourself and atheist go ahead.

If you want to call yourself a Muslim who doesn't believe in god, you can do that as well. But I will point out to that a person who does not believe in god cannot technically be a Muslim.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:27 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't believe in any gods.

So am I, Allah is not God and I don't believe in God or Deity.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:27 pm)Losty Wrote: If you want to call yourself a Muslim who doesn't believe in god, you can do that as well. But I will point out to that a person who does not believe in god cannot technically be a Muslim.

Nope. . the Quran doesn't say that.

(June 18, 2014 at 11:26 am)Muslim Atheism[b' Wrote: Contention: Muslim don’t have to believe in Allah, Paradise, Angels, and all the allegorical issue that need further interpretation [/b]

Read together with verses 3.7 and 5.101.

This is the minimum requirement and it is the “interpretation provision” of a Muslim and a Believer.

Quote:The bedouins say, “We have believed.” (about faith, believers)

Say, “You have not believed; (about faith, believers)

but say, ‘We have submitted,’ (about obedience, muslim)

for faith has not yet entered your hearts. (faith beyond human control, not our fault)

And if you obey Allah and His Messenger (about obedience, muslim)
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. (ie. including paradise etc)
Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (any mistakes relating to faith)
49.14-15

Firstly

When Allah says “You have not believed”
It means, “You have not believed”
It does not means, “You have believed”

Simple logic, everyone can understand this statement.
Someone may argue that they have believed, but it is not according to Allah.
There are specific provisions to define the Believers, and it is not for human beings to simply claim that they are Believers.

Therefore it doesn’t matter if they believe or did not believe.
What matter is they obey the rules in the Quran, and what is related to the “practical aspect of life”.


Secondly

When Allah says “You have not believed”
and then, ‘We have submitted’
It means, there is a distinction between “Believers” and “Muslim”
It means, there is a distinction between “faith” and “obedience”
These two do not mean the same, and human being only be accountable for “obedience”, not “faith”

Faith is beyond human control, but obedience is within human control.
“Faith” is within the Allah’s jurisdiction, and “obedience” is within human’s jurisdiction.
There is no blame for what is beyond human control.

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. (2.286)


Thirdly

When Allah says “And if you obey Allah and His Messenger.
He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything”
and then “Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful”

It means, one can enter Paradise even if he does not believe in Allah at all.
It can be wrong, but Allah said “Allah is Forgiving and Merciful”
Allah will forgive whatever mistakes that is related or may arise from “lack of faith”
Muslim only concern with their “practical aspect of life”

Accordingly, a Muslim is not necessarily the so called Muslim as we know today, the system of Islam is to simplify life so that the society can unite, not to complicated life and raising all issues and creating more and more division in the society. These people are sectarians, and "sectarianism is a religion". They are "religious people", whatever name they attached themselves to.

The allegorical in the Quran is for the hypocrites and disbelievers.

Quote:Over it are nineteen [angels]. And We have not made the keepers of the Fire except angels. And We have not made their number except as a trial for those who disbelieve - that those who were given the Scripture will be convinced and those who have believed will increase in faith and those who were given the Scripture and the believers will not doubt and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say, "What does Allah intend by this as an example?" Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows the soldiers of your Lord except Him. And mention of the Fire is not but a reminder to humanity. (74.30-31)

Quote:It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded (by this reminder) except those of understanding. (3.7)

(June 21, 2014 at 9:30 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 21, 2014 at 9:27 pm)Losty Wrote: I am an atheist not a Muslim. I don't believe in any gods. If you want to call yourself and atheist go ahead.

So am I, Allah is not God and I don't believe in God or Deity.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:27 pm)Losty Wrote: If you want to call yourself a Muslim who doesn't believe in god, you can do that as well. But I will point out to that a person who does not believe in god cannot technically be a Muslim.

Nope. . the Quran doesn't say that.

So what? I do not care what the Quran says or doesn't say. You do not own the Arabic language. Muslim is not an Islamic word it is an Arabic word. It's definition is one who submits to God. That is the meaning of the word regardless of how you feel about it or how you interpret your silly little fairytale book of nightmares.




CRUNCH CRUNCH CRUNCH

Yes, as usual. .

When Allah says “You have not believed”
It means, “You have believed” ??

Doesn't make sense at all.

(June 21, 2014 at 9:40 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Yes, as usual. .

When Allah says “You have not believed”
It means, “You have believed” ??

Doesn't make sense at all.

What are you talking about?