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RE: No True Scotsman
June 21, 2014 at 5:51 am
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2014 at 5:52 am by max-greece.)
I don't think I've given out so many Kudos's in a single thread ever.
Great responses all over the place.
Only have one avenue to add:
Lek's version seems to be anything bad done in the name of Christianity goes against the teachings of Christ.
That's all very well and dandy, but, there's a lot of it about. We have 2,000 years of Christians doing horrible things to others, and even to each other, in the name of Christ.
Maybe they are not following the teachings, maybe they are, but if they are not, shouldn't we be blaming the teacher?
Any other teacher in any other discipline with this kind of fail rate would be fired.
Kuusi palaa, ja on viimeinen kerta kun annan vaimoni laittaa jouluvalot!
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 21, 2014 at 7:12 am
(This post was last modified: June 21, 2014 at 7:16 am by Ryantology.)
(June 19, 2014 at 12:15 pm)Lek Wrote: It's common for non-believers to condemn christianity for atrocities committed or perceived to be committed in the name of christianity. They use this to assert that christianity is an evil force in the world. A christian is defined as one who follows Christ. Therefore I ask if a nation or individual is truly following the teachings of Jesus Christ would they have committed those atrocities?
Who gets to determine whether someone is truly following the teachings of Jesus, Mr. True Scotsman?
The fact that the central tenet of Christianity amounts to blackmailing people to avoid the worst imaginable sort of atrocity, and the fact that God directly orders, condones and commits several atrocities himself, there is nothing about committing atrocities such as mass murder or slavery that is contradictory to Christianity.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 2:08 am
What did Jesus teach?
Pray by yourself in a closet.
Sell everything and give it to the poor.
If someone asks you for something give it to him and don't ask for it back.
Don't think lustful thoughts.
Pluck out your eyes and cut off your body parts to keep from sinning.
Don't worry because you can't do anything about it.
Don't build your house on sand. Look good when fasting.
Turn the other cheek.
Pray for your enemies and forgive them (with all of that you shouldn't have any enemies).
Don't judge other people. If they stopped telling you their problems you wouldn't have cause to think
that they're idiots.
Give your kids fish instead of serpents to eat.
Squeeze through the narrow gate instead of passing through the wide one.
Don't trust tv preachers.
Hate your family but love your neighbors.
And the big one: do everything he said or he will toss you into the lake of fire.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 2:15 am
OK, when you put it like that ....
But apart from that, we can still be good Xtians and have fun, right?
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 3:11 am
(June 21, 2014 at 5:51 am)max-greece Wrote: I don't think I've given out so many Kudos's in a single thread ever.
Great responses all over the place.
Only have one avenue to add:
Lek's version seems to be anything bad done in the name of Christianity goes against the teachings of Christ.
That's all very well and dandy, but, there's a lot of it about. We have 2,000 years of Christians doing horrible things to others, and even to each other, in the name of Christ.
Maybe they are not following the teachings, maybe they are, but if they are not, shouldn't we be blaming the teacher?
Any other teacher in any other discipline with this kind of fail rate would be fired.
Here's a question for you: If you could get into a place you wanted to be by using someones name would you do it?
Horrible things have been done by all of humanity. Fortunately, all we need do is to "repent, and be saved"!
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 4:51 am
(This post was last modified: June 22, 2014 at 5:01 am by rexbeccarox.)
ITT: Lek defends the No True Scotsman with the No True Scotsman. Makes sense; he's used to circular reasoning.
*yawn*
I was hoping for something more interesting here. Yeah... I'm probably delusional.
ETA: When I was looking for something more interesting, I was talking about the lek's arguments. The responses in this thread have been great.
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 6:58 am
(June 22, 2014 at 3:11 am)ronedee Wrote: Here's a question for you: If you could get into a place you wanted to be by using someones name would you do it? Don't see the relevance of this question but no I wouldn't.
(June 22, 2014 at 3:11 am)ronedee Wrote: Horrible things have been done by all of humanity. Fortunately, all we need do is to "repent, and be saved"!
Yes thank you, we all know what you believe...
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 8:58 am
(June 22, 2014 at 3:11 am)ronedee Wrote: (June 21, 2014 at 5:51 am)max-greece Wrote: I don't think I've given out so many Kudos's in a single thread ever.
Great responses all over the place.
Only have one avenue to add:
Lek's version seems to be anything bad done in the name of Christianity goes against the teachings of Christ.
That's all very well and dandy, but, there's a lot of it about. We have 2,000 years of Christians doing horrible things to others, and even to each other, in the name of Christ.
Maybe they are not following the teachings, maybe they are, but if they are not, shouldn't we be blaming the teacher?
Any other teacher in any other discipline with this kind of fail rate would be fired.
Here's a question for you: If you could get into a place you wanted to be by using someones name would you do it?
Horrible things have been done by all of humanity. Fortunately, all we need do is to "repent, and be saved"!
That you have found a way to justify this so that Jesus comes out blameless isn't really a surprise.
But surely you must wonder why Big Daddy, Junior and the Spook are sitting up there happily whilst terrible things are being done in their name.
On the other hand, brain washing is a difficult thing to self-diagnose.
Kuusi palaa, ja on viimeinen kerta kun annan vaimoni laittaa jouluvalot!
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 12:22 pm
(This post was last modified: June 22, 2014 at 12:34 pm by Lek.)
(June 22, 2014 at 2:08 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: What did Jesus teach?
Pray by yourself in a closet.
Sell everything and give it to the poor.
If someone asks you for something give it to him and don't ask for it back.
Don't think lustful thoughts.
Pluck out your eyes and cut off your body parts to keep from sinning.
Don't worry because you can't do anything about it.
Don't build your house on sand. Look good when fasting.
Turn the other cheek.
Pray for your enemies and forgive them (with all of that you shouldn't have any enemies).
Don't judge other people. If they stopped telling you their problems you wouldn't have cause to think
that they're idiots.
Give your kids fish instead of serpents to eat.
Squeeze through the narrow gate instead of passing through the wide one.
Don't trust tv preachers.
Hate your family but love your neighbors.
And the big one: do everything he said or he will toss you into the lake of fire.
I must say you have a unique way of interpreting scripture. Maybe not, though. I see it interpreted that way a lot in this forum. No wonder you can't believe.
(June 20, 2014 at 11:38 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Condemning people to hell, for merely being born (and hence, according to the New Testament, being a sinner by nature) is immoral, Lek. Sorry, the core message of Christianity is immoral and all actions that follow from that, while some may be very, very good, are still poisoned by irrational motives, motives that often lead to immoral atrocities. One cannot value human life while tolerating--no, committing one's life to worship of the deity responsible for--the idea that these lives deserve and will face eternal punishment forever and ever... for simply not converting. You're making stuff up. Nobody's condemned to hell for being born. Every single person born can be saved. We've already been through the part about people who don't have the chance to hear the gospel.
(June 22, 2014 at 4:51 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: ITT: Lek defends the No True Scotsman with the No True Scotsman. Makes sense; he's used to circular reasoning.
*yawn*
I was hoping for something more interesting here. Yeah... I'm probably delusional.
ETA: When I was looking for something more interesting, I was talking about the lek's arguments. The responses in this thread have been great.
What I'm saying is that the No True Scotsman argument is valid in this case and I've defended that position. What you're saying is "oh, he's using that argument, so it's invalid."
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RE: No True Scotsman
June 22, 2014 at 12:58 pm
No. You are using the no true scotsman fallacy when applied to a true christian. There is no consistent definition of a true christian. Even if we use a definition like: 'one who follows jesus teachings' there are 4000 different denominations of christianity with 4000 different views on what jesus teachings are. Which denomination is the true one? Is it yours? We have no way of knowing.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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