We know that.
That's what we've been saying all along......

Playing word games is not an argument. Posting videos from apologists is also not an argument.

I really don't see what the point in any of your arguments are if you claim to be a "muslimatheism". No different than secular Jew or secular Christian.

The books of Abraham stem from the same past and originated from the Canaanite polytheism. There is no need for humans to use any of those books for a moral guide. They are merely human invented books of myth reflecting the beliefs of the people of that time. You are in the same boat as Christians and Jews with as much evidence for your claims, secular or believer. None of those religions or books are required to be good or do good.

Just watched the two videos, and Zakir Naik isn't saying that Allah is not God.

In the first video, he is arguing that the English word "God" is not a fair translation for Allah because in the English language the word "god" is played around with a lot. He is not saying that Allah is not God in concept. Rather, the word "God" itself is not as special as the word "Allah".

In the second video, he is arguing that if you can compare Allah and a human being to each other, then Allah can't be God but an inferior one.

(June 22, 2014 at 9:26 am)LostLocke Wrote: We know that.
That's what we've been saying all along......

In any contention or conclusion, there are premises, conclusion, issue, assumptions, missing premises and assumptions etc. .

and from the conclusion, it is the acknowledgement that "god exists".

(June 21, 2014 at 8:24 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 21, 2014 at 6:39 pm)Esquilax Wrote: However, if you ask an atheist whether or not it's impossible that a god exists, the answer could be a yes, no, maybe, pretty much anything.

Therefore. . .

Whether it is impossible that a god exists
Whether it is possible that a god exists
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The assumption here is "god exists",
ie. it is the "subject matter" or "facts of the discussion"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The "possibility" is the issue, it is not the "subject matter" or "facts of the discussion"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

same as "The House"

"The" is meaningless. . it must have the subject-matter, ie. "House"

The "House" must exist or acknowledged as exists for the conclusion defining Atheism to make sense.

The hell is the House?

(June 22, 2014 at 9:40 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 22, 2014 at 9:26 am)LostLocke Wrote: We know that.
That's what we've been saying all along......

In any contention or conclusion, there are premises, conclusion, issue, assumptions, missing premises and assumptions etc. .

and from the conclusion, it is the acknowledgement that "god exists".

No, it's not.

If I say "the house", I'm tallking about a house I know or assume already exists.

If I ask "Is there a house?", I don't know if this house exists, otherwise I wouldn't ask the question in the first place.

(June 22, 2014 at 9:35 am)Irrational Wrote: In the first video, he is arguing that the English word "God" is not a fair translation for Allah because in the English language the word "god" is played around with a lot. He is not saying that Allah is not God in concept. Rather, the word "God" itself is not as special as the word "Allah".

That's the point, it is "duality" but none is equivalent to Allah. . even "ideas" or "concepts" . . . it is Shirk (forgiven)

(June 22, 2014 at 9:03 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Allah is not God
http://ahmedhulusi.org/

and God is used in the Quran because it is human terms, for human understanding. However, the Quran has a "interpretation provision" for Allah, the same way we have The Interpretation Act, and Allah is not "God" , and no one knows what is Allah. That's how the Quran is structure.

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(June 22, 2014 at 9:42 am)LostLocke Wrote: No, it's not.

If I say "the house", I'm tallking about a house I know or assume already exists.

If I ask "Is there a house?", I don't know if this house exists, otherwise I wouldn't ask the question in the first place.

Okay, you can insist on "possibility" without subject matter, but it doesn't make sense to me, neither it makes sense to the rule and principle of logic. I'm sorry. . but it is nonsense.

(June 22, 2014 at 9:46 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Okay, you can insist on "possibility" without subject matter, but it doesn't make sense to me, neither it makes sense to the rule and principle of logic. It is nonsense.

"Is there a house?"

House is the subject. What's the problem?
There is no logical issue here.

(June 22, 2014 at 9:03 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote:

(June 22, 2014 at 7:57 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: Ever tried tellings these things at, lets say, a mosque?

There is nothing new about all this in Islam. Every Muslim knows that Islam is a "Deen" and there is no equal interpretation of "Deen" to other languages. Every Muslim knows the Torah, Psalm and Gospel is the Books of Allah, and none can be a Muslim if they reject these Books. Therefore, there is no religion. Every Muslim knows none is equivalent to "Allah", or any concept whatsoever. . ie. it is Shirk. However, most people just speak basic language because there are many arabic terms in the Quran cannot be interpreted in other languages. It is not the same arabic language of today's arab, ie. it is the Quraish dialects and no one speaks that dialect today.

However, they just don't reinterpreted it in today's terms and relying on Islamic scholars to explain all these.

For example, proof that it is the more precise knowledge of Islam and it has been made to the public.

Allah is not God
http://ahmedhulusi.org/

No one kill him for saying Allah is not God.

I asked if you ever say this stuff at your mosque. Simple question really. And it's especially interesting because you just claimed every muslim knows the things you are saying.

And I have another question: You seem to be saying that allah is not god and that it is impossible to know what he is. Which basically means you have an agnostic position on the exact charateristics of allah.
So my question is: could allah in actuality have the characteristics of let's say a bike? Or a pile of shit? Could allah be a unicorn?

(June 22, 2014 at 9:51 am)LostLocke Wrote: "Is there a house?"

House is the subject. What's the problem?
There is no logical issue here.

You don't have the "subject matter", therefore, there is no "possibility". . .

What is you are "denying" or "confirming" ?

None. . no issue, no possibility, no nothing. . no one can engage in a rational conversation with you . . .and you should only be silent and not thinking at all. Be invisible.

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(June 22, 2014 at 9:58 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: And I have another question: You seem to be saying that allah is not god and that it is impossible to know what he is. Which basically means you have an agnostic position on the exact charateristics of allah.
So my question is: could allah in actuality have the characteristics of let's say a bike? Or a pile of shit? Could allah be a unicorn?

Not really like the agnostic , I believe in the Quran and the system, ie. the Deen of Islam.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what characteristic of Allah. Allah commands to ignore "mutasyaabihat" (allegorical) and that need interpretation. Those terms is in the Quran for the hypocrites and the disbelievers, to misled these peoples, yes, the Quran misled people. They like to discuss those issue, and I called it "nonsense", because it is futile to discuss something that the Quran says "no one knows its interpretation".

Quote:He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ,

containing messages that are clear in and by themselves
and these are the essence of the divine writ (the focus of muslim)

as well as others that are allegorical (focus of the hypocrites and disbelievers)
Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth
go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory
seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion
and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]

but none save God knows its final meaning.

Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say:
"We believe in it (the book); the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer
albeit none takes this (remider) to heart save those who are endowed with insight.
(3.7)

The Quran is about the "Deen", about the practical life and not about some illusion of hell, paradise, Allah, angels, satan etc. It is not the "Deen", it is "nonsense", ie. discussing something that the Quran says "no one know its interpretation". It will create distress in the society, division, and defeat the main purpose for unity within diversity.