The notion of limited government (or small government - any way you achieve it) is not uniquely libertarian.

also, as an aside.

Quote:Although some present-day libertarians advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights,[3] such as in land, infrastructure and natural resources, others, notably libertarian socialists, seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of their common or cooperative ownership and management.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Finally, libertarians I can vouch for!

(July 6, 2014 at 10:34 am)Jenny A Wrote: [quote='Blackout' pid='702097' dateline='1404653250']
I have a question for anyone who'd like to answer, if I'm socially liberal and economically/fiscally conservative what does that make me?

Libertarian lite?

Quote:I sort of fit that catagory myself, but it depends on what you mean by socially liberal. If you mean hands off people's private lives, don't regulate marriage, sex, drugs, religion, etc. that's the social side of libertarian. But if you mean welfare and socialized medicine, that's liberal.

No not welfare, that's not liberal, more intervention for me is less liberalism, the more taxes you pay the less free you are. Of course I support free healthcare and education, but I think there should be a private sector with quality for those who prefer. I am pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro euthanasia and assisted suicide (with requirements of course), pro marijuana legalization (alcohol and cigarettes should keep being legal, but no more legalization), religious freedom is a constitutional right. I mean I like some welfare but I think everybody should be self sustainable and not babysitted by the State, I don't like those states that tax people by 50% and people end up abusing the system and live on others' money, where I live 80% on welfare refuse to work and still keep their pensions. I'm mostly and individualist, but in some things I'm a humanist and think we should help others. I support the free market, freedom of enterprise, establishment, autonomy, free competition, etc

Quote: on the fiscal side you mean small government because the government shouldn't do much of anything beyond preventing crime, providing a court system, and managing international relations that's libertarian. The more things you add to the list the more "lite" it gets. Just being free trade used to be conservative, but the Bushes seem to have replaced that with cronyism.

Yes I like small government. I like about 40% public property and 60% or more private property. In europe this is conservative

Quote:But whatever it is, there seem to be a lot of out here. So which is more important to you fiscal responsibility or social freedoms?

, we can keep both
Both are important. Social freedoms are important, but it doesn't mean others have to pay for your expenses. As for fiscal responsibility, a proportional tax for everyone seems fair, everyone should bay, and taxes should be just the essential for education, defenses, healthcare and so on, I don't see why the government should be funding areas that they have no experience in.

(July 6, 2014 at 10:46 am)Blackout Wrote:

(July 6, 2014 at 10:34 am)Jenny A Wrote: [quote='Blackout' pid='702097' dateline='1404653250']
I have a question for anyone who'd like to answer, if I'm socially liberal and economically/fiscally conservative what does that make me?

Libertarian lite?

Quote:I sort of fit that catagory myself, but it depends on what you mean by socially liberal. If you mean hands off people's private lives, don't regulate marriage, sex, drugs, religion, etc. that's the social side of libertarian. But if you mean welfare and socialized medicine, that's liberal.

No not welfare, that's not liberal, more intervention for me is less liberalism, the more taxes you pay the less free you are. Of course I support free healthcare and education, but I think there should be a private sector with quality for those who prefer. I am pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro euthanasia and assisted suicide (with requirements of course), pro marijuana legalization (alcohol and cigarettes should keep being legal, but no more legalization), religious freedom is a constitutional right. I mean I like some welfare but I think everybody should be self sustainable and not babysitted by the State, I don't like those states that tax people by 50% and people end up abusing the system and live on others' money, where I live 80% on welfare refuse to work and still keep their pensions. I'm mostly and individualist, but in some things I'm a humanist and think we should help others. I support the free market, freedom of enterprise, establishment, autonomy, free competition, etc

Quote: on the fiscal side you mean small government because the government shouldn't do much of anything beyond preventing crime, providing a court system, and managing international relations that's libertarian. The more things you add to the list the more "lite" it gets. Just being free trade used to be conservative, but the Bushes seem to have replaced that with cronyism.

Yes I like small government. I like about 40% public property and 60% or more private property. In europe this is conservative

Quote:But whatever it is, there seem to be a lot of out here. So which is more important to you fiscal responsibility or social freedoms?

, we can keep both
Both are important. Social freedoms are important, but it doesn't mean others have to pay for your expenses. As for fiscal responsibility, a proportional tax for everyone seems fair, everyone should bay, and taxes should be just the essential for education, defenses, healthcare and so on, I don't see why the government should be funding areas that they have no experience in.

By libertarian lite, I meant you might have libertarian leanings without being libertarian. Given the above, by U.S. standards you are quite simply liberal. All you have to do is say "free health care" and you're a liberal here. Free healthcare here is synonymous with communism in conservative circles.

I asked which you valued most, fiscal responsibility or social freedom, because in the two party system in which I have to vote, that is a question I have to ask every time I fill out a ballet. I can't answer the question either, so I'm often torn.

(July 6, 2014 at 10:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: The notion of limited government (or small government - any way you achieve it) is not uniquely libertarian.

also, as an aside.

Quote:Although some present-day libertarians advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights,[3] such as in land, infrastructure and natural resources, others, notably libertarian socialists, seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of their common or cooperative ownership and management.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Finally, libertarians I can vouch for!

Of course there are libertarian socialists, libertarianism is not exclusively right wing laissez faire capitalism, even though I prefer this one, I like individualism and liberty. And it's a weird orientation considering I'm a european.

---

(July 6, 2014 at 11:04 am)Jenny A Wrote:

(July 6, 2014 at 10:46 am)Blackout Wrote: Libertarian lite?
No not welfare, that's not liberal, more intervention for me is less liberalism, the more taxes you pay the less free you are. Of course I support free healthcare and education, but I think there should be a private sector with quality for those who prefer. I am pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro euthanasia and assisted suicide (with requirements of course), pro marijuana legalization (alcohol and cigarettes should keep being legal, but no more legalization), religious freedom is a constitutional right. I mean I like some welfare but I think everybody should be self sustainable and not babysitted by the State, I don't like those states that tax people by 50% and people end up abusing the system and live on others' money, where I live 80% on welfare refuse to work and still keep their pensions. I'm mostly and individualist, but in some things I'm a humanist and think we should help others. I support the free market, freedom of enterprise, establishment, autonomy, free competition, etc
Yes I like small government. I like about 40% public property and 60% or more private property. In europe this is conservative
, we can keep both
Both are important. Social freedoms are important, but it doesn't mean others have to pay for your expenses. As for fiscal responsibility, a proportional tax for everyone seems fair, everyone should bay, and taxes should be just the essential for education, defenses, healthcare and so on, I don't see why the government should be funding areas that they have no experience in.

By libertarian lite, I meant you might have libertarian leanings without being libertarian. Given the above, by U.S. standards you are quite simply liberal. All you have to do is say "free health care" and you're a liberal here. Free healthcare here is synonymous with communism in conservative circles.

I asked which you valued most, fiscal responsibility or social freedom, because in the two party system in which I have to vote, that is a question I have to ask every time I fill out a ballet. I can't answer the question either, so I'm often torn.

In europe left wingers are not called liberals but socialists, I don't know there is the liberty if the government controls more of your life. I have a 6 party system and honestly it sucks because it's hard to reach an agreement between everyone, there is a conservative party, a center right, center left, a left and a far left (communist party), + and ecological/environmental party

Here even conservatives want free healthcare, no one wants to abolish it, it's far from communism. I think the question fiscal responsibility vs social freedom can be answered by prudence and equilibrium between both. I usually vote conservative because they propose the best economical measure, despite me disagreeing with their social views, but even conservatives are progressive from time to time. Again, a conservative here is a democrat in the US more or less.

Your conservatives are probably more like our liberal dems, to be honest. Now take a look at our far right in that new light. We have overt dominionists seeking and holding office in our country.


Disturbing, isn't it?

(July 6, 2014 at 2:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Your conservatives are probably more like our liberal dems, to be honest. Now take a look at our far right in that new light. We have overt dominionists and closeted fascists seeking and holding office in our country.


Disturbing, isn't it?

You are right. As I said, I consider myself right wing with liberal orientations in social freedom, but I consider that a minimum government is something like 40% public property... I support free healthcare, education, but those are basically a necessity and no one questions it here.

We have a far right, it's the nationalist party and they have zero representation in the parliament, they are mostly inspired by old school fascism before 1974, they use the motto 'Everything for the nation, nothing against the nation', but they make some very good critics to the system despite being too vocal and direct about it. Not everyone has the guts to say we have too much immigrants and that we should just deport them, or too many people on welfare, but it's the truth.

(July 6, 2014 at 9:27 am)Blackout Wrote: You are taking the liberal and conservative ideas to the extreme, not all conservatives are racists against minorities and not all liberals want to live by other people's money. Your replies to each other look somewhat childish.

Not all conservatives are racist, but racism deeply permeates American conservative politics and is an element in virtually every socio-economic policy they have. Conservatives in this country started a civil war and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans to preserve the right to own black people as property. Conservatives were the ones angrily resisting the end of segregation and engaging in violence against civil rights activists. That mentality has been watered down, but it's not gone. Now they just demonize the black man that most Americans wanted to lead the executive branch. Do they do this by calling him a nigger? Yeah, actually, that happens with considerable frequency. A lot of it is more circumspect. If you think the constant referral to Obama as a Kenyan or a Muslim isn't about race, you're in painful denial. And this mindset is not fringe within conservative politics. It is, rather, one of its primary defining elements.

Now, of course, not all conservatives are racist. It's just that the ones who are dominate conservatism and the ones who aren't perpetuate the racism by voting for these candidates, or at the very least pretend that racism isn't there when it very obviously is. That makes them complicit.

I don't think anyone should live on anyone else's money. That's why I oppose the idea that wealthy deserve to reap the vast majority of the rewards from the hard work of their employees. People in America are poor primarily because the rich steal from them.

(July 6, 2014 at 3:28 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(July 6, 2014 at 9:27 am)Blackout Wrote: You are taking the liberal and conservative ideas to the extreme, not all conservatives are racists against minorities and not all liberals want to live by other people's money. Your replies to each other look somewhat childish.

Not all conservatives are racist, but racism deeply permeates American conservative politics and is an element in virtually every socio-economic policy they have. Conservatives in this country started a civil war and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans to preserve the right to own black people as property. Conservatives were the ones angrily resisting the end of segregation and engaging in violence against civil rights activists. That mentality has been watered down, but it's not gone. Now they just demonize the black man that most Americans wanted to lead the executive branch. Do they do this by calling him a nigger? Yeah, actually, that happens with considerable frequency. A lot of it is more circumspect. If you think the constant referral to Obama as a Kenyan or a Muslim isn't about race, you're in painful denial. And this mindset is not fringe within conservative politics. It is, rather, one of its primary defining elements.

Now, of course, not all conservatives are racist. It's just that the ones who are dominate conservatism and the ones who aren't perpetuate the racism by voting for these candidates, or at the very least pretend that racism isn't there when it very obviously is. That makes them complicit.

I don't think anyone should live on anyone else's money. That's why I oppose the idea that wealthy deserve to reap the vast majority of the rewards from the hard work of their employees. People in America are poor primarily because the rich steal from them.

If I'm not mistaken they do not only fight against racial minorities rights, but also against equal sex rights, they believe in freedom of religion not freedom from religion... Meh pardon me but I don't understand american conservatives

You neither, huh? Well fuck me, I was hoping that somebody looking in from the outside might be able to make better sense of the situation.

(July 6, 2014 at 3:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You neither, huh? Well fuck me, I was hoping that somebody looking in from the outside might be able to make better sense of the situation.

You want my opinion? I think such a party here would never get enough votes to get parliamentary representation. Actually, thinking deeply about it, the republican party would go against my constitution so it would never be allowed.