(May 29, 2010 at 7:51 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:I assume you are going to say that your beliefs are the only true Islamic beliefs in the Muslim world. How predictable that you would feel that way

what do u mean by other beliefs?

Sunni, Shi'a, Ahmadiyya, Sufism, Salafi just to name a few...



About the verses dealing with wife beating, I understand that there are "soft" interpretations possible. But even then, the Qur'an gives advices to the husband if his wife misbehaves and as far as I know not the other way around: the husband is shown as the head of the household and the one responsible for saving the marriage and dealing with problems in the household. He is in charge thus superior to his wife.

(May 29, 2010 at 8:02 pm)AtheistPhil Wrote:

(May 29, 2010 at 7:51 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what do u mean by other beliefs?

Sunni, Shi'a, Ahmadiyya, Sufism, Salafi just to name a few...

These variations within Islam are not different beliefs, they deal with succession after Mohammad's death, and which traditions to follow. You can say about Islam what you want, but their fractions are remarkably more consistent than Christianity.

Regarding the question asked before about beating your wife(Quran 4:34):

This case is an exception but the general relations in marriage see my first post
But I will get in little more details as I feel that I have to clarify
The exception: disobedient the word used in Arabic is a very bad word referring to woman doing very bad things that is impossible that u can continue your life like that
So there are 3 steps in this situation
First: advice them the Arabic word used is more like preach them or try to change them by talking to them for a long time if that didn’t work then
Second: don't sleep in the same bedroom am asking after how long would the woman start feeling bad for sleeping alone?
These two steps according to most of Muslim scholars take from year to year and half

After all that if she is still don't want to correct whatever she was doing
Third: beat her (the right translation from Arabic will be hit her slightly u can check different translations of the Quran) u cant take the word literally without its explanation by Muhammad (pbuh) himself he said hit her slightly in away that don't leave a sign in the body, not at the face and then he said use this(sewak)its something smaller than a tooth brush so its not about hurting her physically but its like a last warning before divorce
And then he said that whoever does this is not the best of u and later one of his wives explained that he never used the third option
At last I wonder what u guys will do if u finds your wife doing a bad thing (like flirting with strange guys in a bad way that make u angry and she don’t want to stop doing that)
At last I know that some of u will continue talking about this like Islam orders beating your wife and will ignore the explanation of this exception and also will ignore the verses I mentioned under woman as a wife but I did my best explaining this

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(May 29, 2010 at 7:50 pm)AtheistPhil Wrote:

(May 29, 2010 at 6:40 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: its saudia arabia,iran and afghanistan(not even in all places of these countries)

Could you explain to me how a state could apply the sharia only in some places and not look like a hypocrit ?

Don't forget Sudan and Nigeria. And we'll have to add Somalia if the islamist rebels take over the country.



Anyway those countries make up to 150 millions muslims, but I guess they're all misguided ?

ok this question made me search a lot to know what is exactly happening if a woman is not wearing hijab in one of these countries and what shariah says about that and i really find nothing except a website that claims that they do nothing they just ask them nicely to wear hijab(and am not sure about that)
but i was thinking what will be my decision if i was a ruler of one of these country and i think i will put punishment exactly like the punishment of not wearing the seat built(and thats only my opinion)

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(May 30, 2010 at 4:28 am)leo-rcc Wrote:

(May 29, 2010 at 8:02 pm)AtheistPhil Wrote:

(May 29, 2010 at 7:51 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what do u mean by other beliefs?

Sunni, Shi'a, Ahmadiyya, Sufism, Salafi just to name a few...

These variations within Islam are not different beliefs, they deal with succession after Mohammad's death, and which traditions to follow. You can say about Islam what you want, but their fractions are remarkably more consistent than Christianity.

thnx

(May 29, 2010 at 4:02 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: 6-covering her body(hijab):

Why should only one of the sexes cover her body if men and women have equal rights?

(May 30, 2010 at 4:43 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: At last I know that some of u will continue talking about this like Islam orders beating your wife and will ignore the explanation of this exception and also will ignore the verses I mentioned under woman as a wife but I did my best explaining this.

I'm not ignoring your explanation. Your explanation made things perfectly clear, as have all the other Muslims who have come to this site to try and defend their beliefs.

At the end of the day, you just confirmed that Islam allows a man to beat his wife. It matters not that it says to hit her gently, you shouldn't be hitting her at all.

Adrian Wrote:It matters not that it says to hit her gently, you shouldn't be hitting her at all.

Unless of course, she happens to be an experienced boxer quite capable of kicking your ass.

(May 30, 2010 at 4:28 am)leo-rcc Wrote:

(May 29, 2010 at 8:02 pm)AtheistPhil Wrote:

(May 29, 2010 at 7:51 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: what do u mean by other beliefs?

Sunni, Shi'a, Ahmadiyya, Sufism, Salafi just to name a few...

These variations within Islam are not different beliefs, they deal with succession after Mohammad's death, and which traditions to follow. You can say about Islam what you want, but their fractions are remarkably more consistent than Christianity.

That adds up to the same. Christian denominations also are based on differences regarding which traditions to follow. The fact is that schism was present right after mohammed's death and dealt with differences of opinion what the man had said and how to interpret it. Mohammed left no written account himself and the koran was constructed from scattered anecdotal material in a century long process of claims and counter claims that followed his death. Islam indeed lacks the elaborate hierarchical structure that is typical for christianity but there are considerable differences throughout it's worldwide religious profession that can be clustered along denominational lines just as in christianity.

So, flirting is something that islam says to beat your wife for. You are really making your religion look appealling, Mo3. Hahahaha. Us females are going to be lining up around the block to join - not.

What is flirting? Anything a jealous, insecure man wants it to be.

What is the punishment the koran says a woman gives her husband if HE flirts?????? Huh???? Yeah, thought so.

No one should be punished for flirting, ever. If you are that insecure, don't get into a monogamous relationship.

A previous post of yours mentioned being 'lewd' as a crime of women. What the fuck is 'lewd'? Anything a weak, jealous, insecure man wants it to be probably.

You muslim men seem to have a lot of sexual hangups. You should read some self help books. Maybe watch some western porn where the women are enjoying sex and where her organ of pleasure, the clit, is featured. Once you give her some true pleasure, she might actually want to stay with you on her own free will, you know!

You western men: You make me proud. You have evolved far past the primitive barbaric ways and keep getting better and better in refusing to play the silly gender 'wars' of older times.

Scented Nectar Wrote:So, flirting is something that islam says to beat your wife for. You are really making your religion look appealling, Mo3. Hahahaha. Us females are going to be lining up around the block to join - not.

You might be surprised, actually...

I like the snideness though! ^_^

I smell a 'No True Scotsman' here.

What mo3 is doing is this:

1. Finding the most liberal sounding bits of the koran, and then taking the most liberal possible interpretation of them. Rather shockingly, this still supports wife-beating.

2. Claiming that muslim groups and societies that follow more oppressive readings of the koran and the hadith aren't really following islam (aren't true scotsmen).

3. Thus leading to his conclusion that islam is really okay- it isn't anti-woman after all.

Which is bullshit. Islam is hideously oppressive towards women.

The point being that these texts are ambiguous, much like the bible is, and are open to multiple interpretations. Mo3 is a liberal muslim following a liberal interpretation of the koran. The Taliban are at the opposite end of the spectrum- they're a group of sickos who do things like gas attacks on girls schools. But as far as they are concerned, they are following the true islam, and mo3 is not.

Mo3 and the Taliban are both muslims. If we want to evaluate islam, with regard to, say, its attitudes towards women, we need to consider both the liberal islam of people like mo3 and the brutal fundamentalist islam of the Taliban. Plus everything in between. And the picture that emerges is not good.