(August 13, 2014 at 3:42 pm)Michael Wrote: So the idea that hell could be avoided if the Gospel was never preached is not one that actually makes sense from a Christian perspective.

I'm genuinely curious. What is this "Gospel" you speak of? Can you walk me through it without labeling me wicked or evil or sinful at the outset of the tale?

Sure, the Gospel (good news) is that Jesus Christ is King.

(August 13, 2014 at 4:04 pm)Michael Wrote: Sure, the Gospel (good news) is that Jesus Christ is King.

And that matters to me how exactly?

(August 13, 2014 at 3:58 pm)Michael Wrote: Welsh. Well, to put it in more concrete terms, it is the choice of healing hurts or causing hurts, feeding the poor or exploiting them, getting us much for ourselves as we can or giving as much of ourselves as we can. This is what is at stake in the Christian view. This is what the parable of the sheep and goats is all about.

And we can see this in little ways. Do we get up in the morning with the intent to be as kind to people as we can? Or do we get up in the morning looking to look after ourselves as much as we can, even at the expense of others? I have known people of both kinds, and you can see heaven and hell starting to build around them each, even now.

OK, I can see what you mean about how rejecting Christianity as an organized system of religion is different than rejecting Christian values (and not, it would seem, the faux ones like "condescend upon thy gay neighbor" or "deny thy female neighbor choice" but the ones most reasonable people can get behind).

Two questions. First (playing devil's advocate- hah) why bother with any religion? If all Christianity offers is a feel good repackaging of the Golden Rule and not a heaven or hell or entice or frighten me with, why bother being a Christian specifically?

Secondly (playing fundie's advocate now) doesn't this negate the need to convert people to Christianity? Sure, this avoids the problem of 4 billion souls (at least) in hell for being born in the wrong geographical location, but then what's the point of growing Christianity specifically if normally nice people are fine where they are?

(August 13, 2014 at 4:09 pm)ShaMan Wrote:

(August 13, 2014 at 4:04 pm)Michael Wrote: Sure, the Gospel (good news) is that Jesus Christ is King.

And that matters to me how exactly?

Because those who care about goodness can be assured, in the words of Julian of Norwich, that all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.

(August 13, 2014 at 5:11 pm)Michael Wrote:

(August 13, 2014 at 4:09 pm)ShaMan Wrote: And that matters to me how exactly?

Because those who care about goodness can be assured, in the words of Julian of Norwich, that all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.

I care about goodness. What's your point?

It's a nice ideal, but I tend to think we have a tendency of messing things up. But, also, why would a good person reject the personification of goodness? Why wouldn't they embrace and welcome it? If Christianity is true, then Christ would/should surely be welcomed by all who want goodness and love to prevail.

(August 13, 2014 at 5:41 pm)Michael Wrote: why would a good person reject the personification of goodness?

To say that Jesus was the personification of goodness requires me to make a judgment of his character. Am I not capable of judgment errors?

The "personification of goodness" is entirely subjective.