(August 15, 2014 at 3:48 pm)Michael Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 3:33 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: You're conflating the *act* of prayer and it's efficacy with the *actions* of humans and those action's associated efficacy.

The point being, the *act* of prayer is indistinguishable from doing nothing at all, vs. the very real and tangible results from humans actually doing something.

On the contrary. It was me that made the distinction in the first place, suggesting that one could debate the mechanism of prayer while still acknowledging the beneficial effects. You might not have noticed it, but I was giving atheists a way into examining what may be positive about prayer without having to believe in the divine realm.

Well, the point is that prayer (or whatever label) can be beneficial for the practictioner, but it's not the prayer that feeds the hungry, it's the actions of the people that feed the hungry (for example).

Yes, and many people act after prayer in a way they didn't act before. That is the essence of the metta meditation I was talking about. Prayer can change attitudes, and actions follow attitudes. The idea that prayer is in some way contrary to action just doesn't fit with prayer in any religious practice I know (Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewis, Hindhu). It's just another straw man.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:48 pm)Michael Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 3:33 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: You're conflating the *act* of prayer and it's efficacy with the *actions* of humans and those action's associated efficacy.

The point being, the *act* of prayer is indistinguishable from doing nothing at all, vs. the very real and tangible results from humans actually doing something.

On the contrary. It was me that made the distinction in the first place, suggesting that one could debate the mechanism of prayer while still acknowledging the beneficial effects. You might not have noticed it, but I was giving atheists a way into examining what may be positive about prayer without having to believe in the divine realm. It's not unlike how psychology has sought what is good about mindfulness mediation without embracing Buddhism (though my Buddhist friends do feel it has been hijacked for selfish reasons, and the 'mindfulness movement' has totally failed to grasp the essence of selfless transformation at the centre of Buddhist beliefs).

We've been there and done that ten times in this thread. So prayer makes the person praying feel good. The title says 'Does prayer work?' Do you have anythin else to say about that? Does it heal the sick or win soccer matches, or do anything else? The answer is no, by the way.

(August 15, 2014 at 3:54 pm)Michael Wrote: Yes, and many people act after prayer in a way they didn't act before. That is the essence of the metta meditation I was talking about. Prayer can change attitudes and actions follow attitudes. The idea that prayer is in some way contrary to action just doesn't fit with prayer in any religious practice I know (Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewis, Hindhu).

I don't think anyone is saying prayer can't lead to a change in attitude, I'm certainly not. The point is that those changes in attitude which lead to action can be accomplished through completely atheistic (or secular if atheistic isn't the word you'd prefer) means, and prayer in either its meditational or theistic sense doesn't hold some sort of status as magic or unique or special, except in the sense that so many people assert it's special or magical.

Does it heal the sick? Look at who it was that worked with lepers, and with AIDs victims in Africa. It was very largely nuns. Prayer is central to their vocation. I would say it can also very definitely help heal depression and anxiety. Personally, I've never seen compelling evidence of physical illnesses healed, though I know others would argue with me there. But I don't have to see that to see that prayer does, often through the caring hands of others, heal. Prayer does have a beneficial effect - individually and in society. This seems beyond any reasonable doubt to me.

Does it help win football matches? Frankly, I don't care. But cricket, ah, that might be different :-)

And with that I must go for evening prayer +

(August 15, 2014 at 4:01 pm)Michael Wrote: Does it heal the sick? Look at who it was that worked with lepers, and with AIDs victims in Africa. It was very largely nuns. Prayer is central to their vocation. I would say it can also very definitely help heal depression and anxiety. Personally, I've never seen compelling evidence of physical illnesses healed, though I know others would argue with me there. But I don't have to see that to see that prayer does, often through the caring hands of others, heal. Prayer does have a beneficial effect - individually and in society. This seems beyond any reasonable doubt to me.

Does it help win football matches? Frankly, I don't care. But cricket, ah, that might be different :-)

And with that I must go for evening prayer +

My bold. Proof, please.

Prayer is a weak-minded person's fearful response to a situation that needs real attention. It's lazy and irresponsible.

(August 15, 2014 at 4:03 pm)Diablo Wrote:

(August 15, 2014 at 4:01 pm)Michael Wrote: Does it heal the sick? Look at who it was that worked with lepers, and with AIDs victims in Africa. It was very largely nuns. Prayer is central to their vocation. I would say it can also very definitely help heal depression and anxiety. Personally, I've never seen compelling evidence of physical illnesses healed, though I know others would argue with me there. But I don't have to see that to see that prayer does, often through the caring hands of others, heal. Prayer does have a beneficial effect - individually and in society. This seems beyond any reasonable doubt to me.

Does it help win football matches? Frankly, I don't care. But cricket, ah, that might be different :-)

And with that I must go for evening prayer +

My bold. Proof, please.

The International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine
Issue: Volume 39, Number 4 / 2009
Pages: 377 - 392
URL: Linking Options
DOI: 10.2190/PM.39.4.c
A Randomized Trial of the Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety

Peter A. Boelens A1, Roy R. Reeves A2, William H. Replogle A3, Harold G. Koenig A4

A1 University of Mississippi and Shalom Prayer Ministry
A2 Jackson VA Medical Center, University of Mississippi
A3 University of Mississippi Medical Center
A4 Duke University Medical Center and VA Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina

Abstract:

Objective: To investigate the effect of direct contact person-to-person prayer on depression, anxiety, positive emotions, and salivary cortisol levels. Design, Setting, and Participants: Cross-over clinical trial with depression or anxiety conducted in an office setting. Following randomization to the prayer intervention or control groups, subjects (95% women) completed Hamilton Rating Scales for Depression and Anxiety, Life Orientation Test, Daily Spiritual Experiences Scale, and underwent measurement of cortisol levels. Individuals in the direct person-to-person prayer contact intervention group received six weekly 1-hour prayer sessions while those in the control group received none. Rating scales and cortisol levels were repeated for both groups after completion of the prayer sessions, and a month later. ANOVAs were used to compare pre- and post-prayer measures for each group. Results: At the completion of the trial, participants receiving the prayer intervention showed significant improvement of depression and anxiety, as well as increases of daily spiritual experiences and optimism compared to controls (p < 0.01 in all cases). Subjects in the prayer group maintained these significant improvements (p < 0.01 in all cases) for a duration of at least 1 month after the final prayer session. Participants in the control group did not show significant changes during the study. Cortisol levels did not differ significantly between intervention and control groups, or between pre- and post-prayer conditions. Conclusions: Direct contact person-to-person prayer may be useful as an adjunct to standard medical care for patients with depression and anxiety. Further research in this area is indicated.

So, does prayer only have statistical efficacy when it is "direct contact person-to-person"?

What about "prayer at a distance"? Something a god might do?

How is "direct contact" prayer different from any other form of one-on-one therapy?

No one argues the beneficial aspects of showing, directly, care and concern. Why would that be remotely surprising? You know what else helps people with anxiety and depression? Talking to someone about their problems. Just...talking.

What we question is any involvement of deities or supernatural agency. That has always been the question.

Quote:Look at who does most work for charity.

Bullshit.


See, I was a catholic before I attained the age of reason, and I well remember them always taking up a collection for this, that or the other thing. "For the missions," or "For the poor," or "For the new roof on the church," or "for the retired priests," or "for Father McGillicutty's viagra prescription."

They always had their hand out to the dolts but they seem to avoid spending church funds....unless they have to pay off the victims of pervert priests and even then they do the godly thing and try to file bankruptcy to get out of paying.

I'm fairly sure that they take a cut out of what they do collect, too.

So charity is left to the members and all your fucking churches do is try to take credit and do a little marketing among the poor bastards they are supposed to be helping.