And let us not forget, in Revelation, which is still part of the Bible as far as I know, Jesus/God/Ghost unleashes the hordes of Hell to slaughter 1/4 of the Earth's population during "judgment time".

Jesus will be the leader of an army that will slaughter billions - with the sword, disease, wild beasts.

Jesus gets to be just like his Dad during God's blood fest.

Now, Celestine -- did you know that little factoid? I'm guessing not.

Unfortunately, it's all true and written down as "scripture".

And you have the gall to tell US to keep our voices down.

Fuck that.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:12 pm)Celestine Wrote: Personally I'd rather Christians cherry pick ones about love and equality than ones about rape and murder.

A certain woman had a boyfriend. He was well employed and generous with his money, he doted on her, he was a fantastic lover, he cooked and cleaned for her, but....

He also rapes her at night, slaps her face so hard that she bruises, broke her cat's leg in a fit of violent rage, etc...

But let's not focus on the fact that he'll probably eventually kill her. At least she'll have a clean house and a full stomach at her funeral.

It's like saying Hitler was nice to his dog, so, overall not all bad!

(September 15, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Celestine Wrote: Militant Atheism does far more harm than good and for any who call themselves atheists out there who believe that religion causes major problems in the world you are severely deluded to the political aspect of your world.

Militant Atheists seek to insult and belittle religious people who find their religion above all else to be logical, if they did not find their belief to be logical they would not believe in it. This form of logic is not dependent on evidence but rather it is a matter of faith. Further more you will never be able to argue against someone and win that argument, you will never be able to prove something for someone but they must prove it for themselves. In essence every atheist who is trying to disprove religion is wasting their time when they should be focusing more on the political agenda of their dominions... at least if they truly wanted to stop mass suffering on a global scale. All it achieves to do is create friction in a society where we should be living as a family, together, and inseparable. Instead we divide ourselves, by ethnicity, by political ideologies, by wealth, and by spiritual beliefs. It is from this division that we are so easily taken advantage of, and people like Richard Dawkins only seek to make the rift between us and our family deeper even if they themselves do not realize it. People in time will prove themselves wrong, making this whole militant atheism campaign a waste of time and if not a distraction and a scapegoat for governments to use to avert the eyes of the public from their political dealings.

I am not sure if this message will reach any of you, atheists in my experience are no better than theists when it comes to rationality. All they managed to do was fit two pieces of a puzzle together in a puzzle that has over a million pieces. There is so much to learn in this life we can ill afford to waste time in it.

So please reconsider your stance on religion.

Did you lurk a bit before concluding this was an important message to deliver here?

Are you the type of atheist you're ranting about? I'd think you'd be the number one experience for 'how atheists are' if you don't believe in any supernatural deities, wouldn't you?

Please consider an intro thread and maybe converse with us a bit before starting new threads. And consider more concise OPs, If I were to adequately address yours, I'd have to break it into several chunks, each one of which would have made a decent OP, but in combination could quickly become unwieldy if you're here to discuss instead of just assert.

I'll address this bit, though: "I am not sure if this message will reach any of you, atheists in my experience are no better than theists when it comes to rationality." In the trade, this is known as 'poisoning the well', along the lines of 'that's my stance on the events in question, and in my experience, anyone who disagrees with me is a racist'.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:12 pm)Celestine Wrote: Personally I'd rather Christians cherry pick ones about love and equality than ones about rape and murder.

Then they don't need the book or the religion, and neither can be offered as justification for their decisions. I agree with you, of course, the best way for the faithful to avoid the problems ported in by their faith - is to stop referencing their faith and holy books.....BTW, the comment you've just made could be interpeted -by- the faithful as incredibly divisive, fundamentally offensive.....and, essentially, all of the things you're warning "militant atheists" against. "Ditch the fairy tale and crib the good parts joe"

-All the parts are good parts you godless sinner. Gods commands are beyond human judgement and authority. The call to genocide and sexual slavery of underage girls was a just command issuing forth from a just god (as all issuings of god are just by his very nature).

Care to give me a spread on that one so we can place bets?

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: I am not a theist, I am an atheist, but I much more prefer to call myself a naturalist. This is your response to a mature post?

The maturity of your post is among the items in question.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: Who funds ISIS? Who funds Al-Qaeda? Who funds the Taliban?

Not atheists.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: These organizations who commit these crimes are NOT the representatives of Muslims and the reason the media focuses on them is to drive support for western intervention in the middle east!

There might be something to that. Definitely in the case of Fox News, I think.

(September 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm)Celestine Wrote: To advance the wests political agenda for that region. Your hatred for religion blinds you from seeing the obvious, I've seen muslims that have more brains than you do. Yet you pride yourself on your 'intelligence' merely for being an atheist, how naive you are.

You're an atheist, too, right? You seem to be doing the opposite of projecting. Why do you assume we're all so different from you? Just because we're not ashamed of the label 'atheist'?

(September 15, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Celestine Wrote: Militant Atheism does far more harm than good and for any who call themselves atheists out there who believe that religion causes major problems in the world you are severely deluded to the political aspect of your world.

Sorry, but you don't know what militant atheism means. I'd add a note regarding your idiotic rant but that would be rude.

(September 15, 2014 at 2:57 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

I am skeptical of these quotes, allow me a bit of time to read the quran with these verses and I shall get back to you on it.

2:193 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression: God loves not the aggressors. slay them wherever you fall upon them, and expel them from where they had expelled you; apostasy by force is indeed more serious than slaying. Do not fight them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight you therein. If they fight you therein, slay them: such is the reward for unbelievers. But if they desist, then God is All-Forgiving, Compassionate to each. Fight them until there is no longer forced apostasy, and the religion is God's. If they desist, no aggression is permitted, except against the wicked. A Holy Month will substitute for a Holy Month, and sacrilege calls for retaliation. Whoever commits aggression against you, retaliate against him in the same measure as he committed against you. Fear God and knows that God stands by the pious.

Quran (2:244) - "Fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

An odd quote that comes after talking about the divorce of women and before a story about how the Israelites did not fight when they were appointed a king, even though they had said "What prevents us from fighting when we've been driven out of our homes, along with our children?"

Quran (2:216) Fighting has been prescribed for you, although it is a manner hateful to you. And yet, for all you know, you may hate something - and it is good for you. For all you know, you may love something - and it is harmful to you. God knows, and you do not know.

It does not say that fighting it good for you, it says it might be good for you even if you hate it. Certainly this can not be construed as calling to arms against unbelievers for unjust reasons. More like a reminder to the Mujahideen for the cause they are fighting for which would in their eyes be good even though they hate fighting.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

none of these are call to arms, but speaking of how god will punish them for their sins. I could type them out but I really do not have to as it is clear in these quotes that these are not calls for war.

Quran (4:74/4:76) But if bounty comes to you from Allah , he will surely say, as if there had never been between you and him any affection. "Oh, I wish I had been with them so I could have attained a great attainment." So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward. And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

In this one the cause to fight is not only for allah but for the oppressed as well.

Tada. It was all in the Quran, and all you had to do was read it to clear up this misunderstanding.

I don't seek to belittle, insult or make the religious feel or look stupid. They do that all on their own.

(September 15, 2014 at 3:45 pm)Celestine Wrote: 2:193 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression: God loves not the aggressors. slay them wherever you fall upon them, and expel them from where they had expelled you; apostasy by force is indeed more serious than slaying. Do not fight them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight you therein. If they fight you therein, slay them: such is the reward for unbelievers. But if they desist, then God is All-Forgiving, Compassionate to each. Fight them until there is no longer forced apostasy, and the religion is God's. If they desist, no aggression is permitted, except against the wicked. A Holy Month will substitute for a Holy Month, and sacrilege calls for retaliation. Whoever commits aggression against you, retaliate against him in the same measure as he committed against you. Fear God and knows that God stands by the pious.

Allah appreciates pretext and would prefer it if you didn't destroy the fancy baubles piled up in his house.

Quote:Quran (2:244) - "Fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

An odd quote that comes after talking about the divorce of women and a story about how the Israelites did not fight when they were appointed a king, even though they had said "What prevents us from fighting when we've been driven out of our homes, along with our children?"

Full of "odd quotes". I call them disheveled and poorly thought-out....but "odd" works as well, I suppose.

Quote:Quran (2:216) Fighting has been prescribed for you, although it is a manner hateful to you. And yet, for all you know, you may hate something - and it is good for you. For all you know, you may love something - and it is harmful to you. God knows, and you do not know.

Right, the killing and the maiming is good for you - and even though it disgusts you, you'll be the better for it. I have a different theory, the killing and the maiming disgusts people because it's disgusting and patently -not- good for us, no matter who tells us to do it.

Quote:It does not say that fighting it good for you, it says it might be good for you even if you hate it. Certainly this can not be construed as calling to arms against unbelievers for unjust reasons. More like a reminder to the Mujahideen for the cause they are fighting for which would in their eyes be good even though they hate fighting.

It can and -ha-s been construed as such - you're not really trying to put yourself in the shoes of the faithful......are you? That has nothing to do with what is good "in their eyes" (subjective) but what Allah decrees to be good (which is believed to be objective). People believe in the causes for which they lay down life and limb - but this is an entirely different beast.......

Quote:Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

I know right, evil motherfuckers. How dare they not believe, I'm going to hurt them.

Quote:Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

none of these are call to arms, but speaking of how god will punish them for their sins. I could type them out but I really do not have to as it is clear in these quotes that these are not calls for war.

-and some feel that they are doing gods bidding along precisely these lines......even the big man deserves time off here and there. Why not off a few kaffir and save him the trouble?

Quote:Quran (4:74/4:76) But if bounty comes to you from Allah , he will surely say, as if there had never been between you and him any affection. "Oh, I wish I had been with them so I could have attained a great attainment." So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward. And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

In this one the cause to fight is not only for allah but for the oppressed as well.

Yeah......so, as per the above, if I off some unbelievers and do gods bidding he might give me candy - or awesome sex robots in an eternal hereafter. Where do I sign up?

Quote:Tada. It was all in the Quran, and all you had to do was read it to clear up this misunderstanding.

Indeed, it -is- all in the quran.....but you don't need to clear up this misunderstanding for us....you need to go clear it up for some hardcore mujahideen, eh? They might clear something up for you as well - like that nasty point of attachment between your head and your body. You'll see things much more clearly when that's handled, of course - and as a bonus...they might get sex robots for "helping" you to see the truth. I really can't stress this enough.....what -couldn't- you get a teenage boy to do by promising him sex robots if he;s never so much as seen a female face (other than his family...if that)?