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In his remarks on the brutal execution of James Foley in Iraq, President Obama claimed "no faith teaches people to massacre innocents. No just God would stand for what they did yesterday and what they do every single day." It's a common refrain, the usual condemnation of a brutal act by Islamists inspired by religious ideology, by their own admission, and the flat out refusal by well meaning liberals to even consider that such brutality could be inspired by religion.
How about we consider what these Islamists are trying to tell us repeatedly; that a certain plausible interpretation of Islam might be at the root of all this brutality.
Here is a sampling of the Quranic passages that Islamists fluently quote: ......
So, the Quran does tell its followers to kill those who don't believe in Islam, in certain contexts. Those contexts of course are debatable.
Now I can almost hear the indignation from well-meaning liberals "but the Bible has violent and hateful passages too.."
However, unlike Christians with the Bible, the vast majority of Muslims believe the Quran to be of divine origin and believe in its literal interpretation. To a Muslim, the Quran is God's literal words to mankind, passed on through the angel Gabriel to prophet Muhammed.
This makes the violent and hateful verses a very real problem.
To be fair the Quran has its share of peaceful verses too.
The issue here is that the Quran contradicts itself and in general the chronologically earlier verses tend to be more peaceful while the latter verses tend to be more violent. Now anyone with a decent understanding of the Quran knows the law of abrogation, which basically means that when there is a contradiction, the latter verse takes precedence....
The argument that ISIS's brutality has nothing to do with religion simply does not hold....
We do have a real problem with a very plausible interpretation of the Quran that ISIS cleverly uses to its advantage. It's time we take our blinders off and started openly talking about the connection between ISIS's brutality and Quranic literalism. It has become far too dangerous to be polite and leave religion out of the discussion.
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 2:31 am (This post was last modified: September 16, 2014 at 2:34 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Quote:Now I can almost hear the indignation from well-meaning liberals "but the Bible has violent and hateful passages too.."
Sure does, and while we're not being polite and leaving it out of the discussion - christianity is no more or less shitty than islam. A pretty hefty number of christians think that the bible is of divine origin and to be interpreted literally as well. Aside from the standard excuses for christian shit I think it's definitely something that ought to get more attention - something that shouldn't be taboo to address.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 2:41 am (This post was last modified: September 16, 2014 at 2:52 am by mralstoner.)
(September 16, 2014 at 2:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: Sure does, and while we're not being polite and leaving it out of the discussion - christianity is no more or less shitty than islam. A pretty hefty number of christians think that the bible is of divine origin and to be interpreted literally as well.
The core concept of both religions is the imitation of their archetypes Jesus and Mohammed. A quick study of their biographies is enough to show that these archetypes are radically different characters. Jesus was a hippy, Mohammed was a head chopper on mass. The argument about literalism is really a minor point. It's the behaviour of the archetypes that matters. Actions speak louder than words. Hence, Christianity is in fact a good deal "less shitty" than Islam. I wouldn't want to live under a theocracy of either brand, but Jesus is a far more peaceful role model than Mohammed. This is plainly obvious.
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 2:52 am
I think that both christianity and islam have met the action requirement for shittiness. Can't say that islam has the lead...but they have some time left yet, you never know.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 6:22 am
I am truly concerned with this Islamic State thing.
These people are monsters who think they have some god covering their backs and who encourages them to keep doing these monstrous acts.
Today, I saw the news that the first airstrike against an IS target has been successful near Baghdad. It seems the US military are also thinking that these people only deserve death from above... how poetic.
But it will change little.
In time, stupid muslims will rise again.... and again, bearing AK-47's kindly sold by... [fill in the blank]...
In time, the religion will incite new uprisings and killings of those who do not believe in the same thing.
The world needs to step up and rid itself of all religion, showing that these people are the deluded idiots that we here already know they are.
But, while the world appeases the moderates, and keeps other deluded idiots in their deluded state, it will never deal with the real problem.
Sure, it may bring forth other problems... but they should be far easier to keep under check.
BILL MAHER: I saw Howard Dean on TV the other day and he said something along the order, he said the people in ISIS -- he said I'm about as Islamic as they are, you know, distancing the vast numbers of Islamic people around the world from them. That's just not true.
CHARLIE ROSE: It is true.
MAHER: It is not true, Charlie. There is a connecting tissue between --
ROSE: Behind every Muslim is a future member of some radical?
MAHER: Let me finish.
ROSE: I was doing that.
MAHER: There are illiberal beliefs that are held by vast numbers of Muslim people that --
ROSE: A vast number of Christians too.
MAHER: No, that's not true. Not true. Vast numbers of Christians do not believe that if you leave the Christian religion you should be killed for it. Vast numbers of Christians do not treat women as second class citizens. Vast numbers of Christians --
ROSE: I agree with that --
MAHER: -- do not believe if you draw a picture of Jesus Christ you should get killed for it. So yes, does ISIS do Khmer Rouge-like activities where they just kill people indiscriminately who aren't just like them? Yes. And would most Muslim people in the world do that or condone that? No.
ROSE: No.
MAHER: But most Muslim people in the world do condone violence just for what you think.
ROSE: How do you know that?
MAHER: They do. First of all they say it. They shout it.
ROSE: Vast majorities of Muslims say that?
MAHER: Absolutely. There was a Pew poll in Egypt done a few years ago -- 82% said, I think, stoning is the appropriate punishment for adultery. Over 80% thought death was the appropriate punishment for leaving the Muslim religion. I'm sure you know these things.
ROSE: Well I do. But I don't believe --
MAHER: So to claim that this religion is like other religions is just naive and plain wrong. It is not like other religious. The New York Times pointed out in an op-ed a couple weeks ago that in Saudi Arabia just since August 4th, they think it was, they have beheaded 19 people. Most for non-violent crimes including homosexuality.
ROSE: I know that they cut the hands off the thief.
MAHER: Right, okay, so we're upset that ISIS is beheading people which we should be upset about but Saudi Arabia does it and they're our good friends because they have oil. Okay. But they do it too. This is the center of the religion. I'm not saying -
ROSE: But they're now fighting against ISIS too. They're joining us in the fight. As is the Emirates. As is Jordan. They are all Muslim countries.
MAHER: Well, they are both fighting ISIS and they are for ISIS.
ROSE: Well, it's not the government. I mean, some of them --
MAHER: Certainly the governments.
ROSE: It's a bit like today about Qatar. The big story today in The New York Times about Qatar. And some guy there is supporting, who is a Muslim --
MAHER: But I mean in Mecca where infidels, non-Muslims, are not even allowed in the holy parts of the city. I mean, right there, we don't have that example in other religions. They do behead people. Now if they were beheading people in Vatican City, which is the equivalent of Mecca, don't you think there would be a bigger outcry about it? So this is the soft bigotry of low expectations with Muslim people. When they do crazy things and believe crazy things, somehow it's not talked about nearly as much.
ROSE: Would you come to the table and debate this with a moderate Muslim?
MAHER: Find one, yes. Find one.
ROSE: I promise you I'll find one.
MAHER: Find a Muslim --
ROSE: I do believe that what we see with ISIS is not representative of --
MAHER: As I said, connecting tissue.
ROSE: -- not representative of the Islamic religion. I don't think the Koran teaches them to do these kinds of things.
MAHER: Well you're wrong about that. The Koran absolutely has on every page stuff that's horrible about how the infidels should be treated. But for example again ISIS says that they should perform genital mutilation on all women 11-46. Would most Muslims agree with that? No. Or carry it out? No.
But as Ayaan Hirsi Ali points out, she says --
ROSE: I wouldn't expect for her to --
MAHER: And she would know better than --
ROSE: Exactly.
MAHER: But can we really say --
ROSE: She's been a victim.
MAHER: -- women are treated equally in the Muslim world? I mean, their testimony in court is very often counted as half. They need permission to leave the house in some places.
ROSE: But a lot of moderate Muslims would say in fact one of the things that we need to modernize is the idea of the way we treat women.
MAHER: But in this country, if you just use the wrong word about women, they go nuts. And all these other countries --
ROSE: As they should.
MAHER: -- they're doing things like making them wear burqas and I hear liberals say things like, 'they want to.' They want to. They've been brainwashed. It's like saying a street walker wants to do that.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 12:08 pm
(September 16, 2014 at 2:41 am)mralstoner Wrote: Hence, Christianity is in fact a good deal "less shitty" than Islam. I wouldn't want to live under a theocracy of either brand, but Jesus is a far more peaceful role model than Mohammed. This is plainly obvious.
The only "reason" Christianity is less shitty, now, is because the governments they run under don't allow them to be shitty.
Turn Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, etc.. into Middle-Eastern styled governments, Christianity would be running wild. You likely would not see much difference with Islam at that point.
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 12:12 pm
IS cares less for theology than Al-Qaeda, despite being religious fanatics. Most Muslims are appalled by them. But they do use their religion as a tool to further their oppressive political goals. Islam needs to be muzzled the same way Christianity was.
RE: Does Islamic State really have nothing to do with religion? Fathima Nazeer
September 16, 2014 at 12:14 pm
-and for precisely the same reasons..lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
