And the Christians of today will squeal "but the NT and Jesus is non-violent! All that horrible stuff in the OT - we don't follow that!"

And yet, throughout history, when it was convenient to do so, Christians DID "follow that" horrible OT stuff. Witch hunts and the inquisition come to mind.

Nonetheless, Islam is the Devil of the Day and it's splitting hairs as to whether Islam or Christianity is shittier than the other. In 2014, I'll go with Islam.

Either, aligned with some State and with political power is extremely dangerous.

(September 16, 2014 at 12:14 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: And the Christians of today will squeal "but the NT and Jesus is non-violent! All that horrible stuff in the OT - we don't follow that!"

And yet, throughout history, when it was convenient to do so, Christians DID "follow that" horrible OT stuff. Witch hunts and the inquisition come to mind.

Nonetheless, Islam is the Devil of the Day and it's splitting hairs as to whether Islam or Christianity is shittier than the other. In 2014, I'll go with Islam.

Either, aligned with some State and with political power is extremely dangerous.

I think it's fair to make the distinction between political Christianity and political Islam from the religious ideologies of those two respective faiths. The question is whether or not the religious ideologies are inherently political. I don't really see any broader political aim promoted in the N.T. outside of the internal operations of the Church but the Koran (along with the O.T.) create entirely different pictures altogether.

Completely agree, as Islam seems to be a religious and political ideology bundled together. And a legal system.

There are political Christian ideologies such as Dominionism, but it isn't as pervasive as political Islam, hence why Islam of today is so dangerous.

When the Christian churches had temporal/political power, they committed innumerable horrors, e.g. The Thirty Years' War. The history since the Enlightenment has been to leash and cage religions, to remove their temporal power.

Islamisists have temporal power and use it much the same way.

Obvious solution is obvious.

Has anyone ever spoke to a "moderate Muslim" and they've said that Islam is much more than a religion? That it is their politics, their culture and offers them a complete system to live their life? Just google "Islam more than a religion" to see lots of examples.

I bet these are the same moderates who now try to say the Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam, apart from the fact its called the Islamic State lol, and its all down to politics.

(September 17, 2014 at 4:31 am)jesus_wept Wrote: Has anyone ever spoke to a "moderate Muslim" and they've said that Islam is much more than a religion? That it is their politics, their culture and offers them a complete system to live their life? Just google "Islam more than a religion" to see lots of examples.

I bet these are the same moderates who now try to say the Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam, apart from the fact its called the Islamic State lol, and its all down to politics.

Let's see. We deposed the democratically-elected president of Iran when he nationalized the oil fields and installed the iron-fisted Shah. We backed the Baathist regime in Iraq's rise to power and helped install Saddam Hussein, putting a Sunni minority in power over a Shia majority. We backed the Islamist rebels against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the Mujahadeen begat the Taliban. We were still giving Afghanistan Islamist children's textbooks for their schools into the nineties. Then we turned on SM, and drove about 2 million Sunni bureacrats and military personnel out on to the streets or out of the Iraq. Then while we dithered over whether to supply arms to moderate rebels against the Assad regime in Syria, ISIS became the dominant rebel force. Now they've invaded Iraq. Why? Because ISIS has a lot of formerly Iraqi Sunnis driven into Syria when we ousted the Baathists.

But it would be naive to think politics explains what's happening in the region when clearly their religion is at the heart of it.

(September 17, 2014 at 2:04 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(September 17, 2014 at 4:31 am)jesus_wept Wrote: Has anyone ever spoke to a "moderate Muslim" and they've said that Islam is much more than a religion? That it is their politics, their culture and offers them a complete system to live their life? Just google "Islam more than a religion" to see lots of examples.

I bet these are the same moderates who now try to say the Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam, apart from the fact its called the Islamic State lol, and its all down to politics.

Let's see. We deposed the democratically-elected president of Iran when he nationalized the oil fields and installed the iron-fisted Shah. We backed the Baathist regime in Iraq's rise to power and helped install Saddam Hussein, putting a Sunni minority in power over a Shia majority. We backed the Islamist rebels against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the Mujahadeen begat the Taliban. We were still giving Afghanistan Islamist children's textbooks for their schools into the nineties. Then we turned on SM, and drove about 2 million Sunni bureacrats and military personnel out on to the streets or out of the Iraq. Then while we dithered over whether to supply arms to moderate rebels against the Assad regime in Syria, ISIS became the dominant rebel force. Now they've invaded Iraq. Why? Because ISIS has a lot of formerly Iraqi Sunnis driven into Syria when we ousted the Baathists.

But it would be naive to think politics explains what's happening in the region when clearly their religion is at the heart of it.

Note that the groups are identified by religion. Just a coincidence?

(September 17, 2014 at 2:04 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(September 17, 2014 at 4:31 am)jesus_wept Wrote: Has anyone ever spoke to a "moderate Muslim" and they've said that Islam is much more than a religion? That it is their politics, their culture and offers them a complete system to live their life? Just google "Islam more than a religion" to see lots of examples.

I bet these are the same moderates who now try to say the Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam, apart from the fact its called the Islamic State lol, and its all down to politics.

Let's see. We deposed the democratically-elected president of Iran when he nationalized the oil fields and installed the iron-fisted Shah. We backed the Baathist regime in Iraq's rise to power and helped install Saddam Hussein, putting a Sunni minority in power over a Shia majority. We backed the Islamist rebels against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the Mujahadeen begat the Taliban. We were still giving Afghanistan Islamist children's textbooks for their schools into the nineties. Then we turned on SM, and drove about 2 million Sunni bureacrats and military personnel out on to the streets or out of the Iraq. Then while we dithered over whether to supply arms to moderate rebels against the Assad regime in Syria, ISIS became the dominant rebel force. Now they've invaded Iraq. Why? Because ISIS has a lot of formerly Iraqi Sunnis driven into Syria when we ousted the Baathists.

But it would be naive to think politics explains what's happening in the region when clearly their religion is at the heart of it.

I wasn't saying politics doesnt play a part, just that its hypocritical of Muslims to say its nothing to do with Islam and its all about politics, while also saying that Islam is their politics. Which they do all the time.

(September 17, 2014 at 2:34 pm)Chas Wrote: Note that the groups are identified by religion. Just a coincidence?

Note that there's one dominant religion in the region, so it won't be a coincidence if almost every group is dominated by members of that religon. Note that the Baathists were a secular nationalist movement. Note that the Iranian president we ousted was a socialist reformer. Note that the Soviet-backed Afghani government we helped bring down was secular communist. We couldn't have arranged for fundamentalist Islamism to sweep the region better if that was our aim all along. Actually, given our record, if that had been what we were aiming for, the area would probably be much more secular now.

Looks as if Australia dodged a bullet.... or a machete.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/2014091...9d549.html

Quote:SYDNEY (AP) — Police on Thursday said they thwarted a plot to carry out beheadings in Australia by supporters of the radical Islamic State group. They raided more than a dozen properties across Sydney and were holding six people and have identified the suspected ringleader, officials said.