(September 25, 2014 at 1:06 am)Lek Wrote: Christ is the savior. Anyone who is saved is saved through him. If someone is seeking the truth, then he is seeking him. They may not have heard of him, but he is still the one by whom they are saved.

Is this doctrine found in the Bible? Is it based upon the pronouncement of some churchly eminence? Is it your own understanding of the thing?

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(September 25, 2014 at 8:51 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think the video is hilarious. I think it's stupid. If hell exists, you can't avoid it just by not believing in it. I'm your king and you break one of the laws I have established for my kingdom. I sentence you to execution, but decide to have mercy on you and execute my son in your place. Did I save you from execution or not? It doesn't matter who made the law or built the execution chamber. I saved you from a just punishment.

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

Don't forget the corollary to your last sentence, which is: you also inflicted an unjust punishment upon an innocent.

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:31 pm)Lek Wrote: Scripture is my evidence. One can choose to believe it or not.

Your evidentiary standards are unacceptably low, as shown by this appeal to circular logic. Certainly the creator of the Universe left more evidence than the measly scratchings of mere mortals.

(September 25, 2014 at 8:51 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think the video is hilarious. I think it's stupid. If hell exists, you can't avoid it just by not believing in it. I'm your king and you break one of the laws I have established for my kingdom. I sentence you to execution, but decide to have mercy on you and execute my son in your place. Did I save you from execution or not? It doesn't matter who made the law or built the execution chamber. I saved you from a just punishment.

Um? Yes it does matter who built the execution chamber. If you built it, it is silly to say you "saved" people by not using it no matter how just using it might be. What you have had is mercy. And yes it matters if the sentence is just. Merely establishing a kingdom does not make every law you pass just. Just what is it that you think anyone has done to deserve eternal torment? It the sentence isn't just, than you are merely refraining from committing a crime.

You don't like the basement? Try this. We have established the kingdom of the United States. We pass a law that everyone living here who has ever had a bad thought about another person or the U.S. must suffer having their eyes burned out with red hot pokers. But our founding father who has never had a bad thought about anyone is willing to have his eyes burned out for everyone else. But we won't show you any proof his eyes have been burned out. Nevertheless, if you swear you love him for having his eyes burned out for you, we won't burn yours out. Ain't we merciful?

Quote:Scripture is my evidence. One can choose to believe it or not.

Heavily edited, anonymous, bullshit. You are easily impressed.

(September 25, 2014 at 9:32 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 1:06 am)Lek Wrote: Christ is the savior. Anyone who is saved is saved through him. If someone is seeking the truth, then he is seeking him. They may not have heard of him, but he is still the one by whom they are saved.

Is this doctrine found in the Bible? Is it based upon the pronouncement of some churchly eminence? Is it your own understanding of the thing?

It's my own understanding of scripture.

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(September 25, 2014 at 9:44 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 8:51 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think the video is hilarious. I think it's stupid. If hell exists, you can't avoid it just by not believing in it. I'm your king and you break one of the laws I have established for my kingdom. I sentence you to execution, but decide to have mercy on you and execute my son in your place. Did I save you from execution or not? It doesn't matter who made the law or built the execution chamber. I saved you from a just punishment.

Um? Yes it does matter who built the execution chamber. If you built it, it is silly to say you "saved" people by not using it no matter how just using it might be. What you have had is mercy. And yes it matters if the sentence is just. Merely establishing a kingdom does not make every law you pass just. Just what is it that you think anyone has done to deserve eternal torment? It the sentence isn't just, than you are merely refraining from committing a crime.

You don't like the basement? Try this. We have established the kingdom of the United States. We pass a law that everyone living here who has ever had a bad thought about another person or the U.S. must suffer having their eyes burned out with red hot pokers. But our founding father who has never had a bad thought about anyone is willing to have his eyes burned out for everyone else. But we won't show you any proof his eyes have been burned out. Nevertheless, if you swear you love him for having his eyes burned out for you, we won't burn yours out. Ain't we merciful?

You're saying that God's punishment is unjust. Your example would be unjust, but God's punishment is not.

(September 25, 2014 at 9:58 pm)Lek Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 9:32 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Is this doctrine found in the Bible? Is it based upon the pronouncement of some churchly eminence? Is it your own understanding of the thing?

It's my own understanding of scripture.

Which verses? Be specific.

(September 25, 2014 at 10:10 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 9:58 pm)Lek Wrote: It's my own understanding of scripture.

Which verses? Be specific.

1 Timothy 2:3-6New International Version (NIV) 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

John 6:37 (NIV) 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Matthew 7:7-8 New International Version (NIV) 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

(September 25, 2014 at 9:58 pm)Lek Wrote: You're saying that God's punishment is unjust. Your example would be unjust, but God's punishment is not.

Yes I am saying eternal punishment is unjust for any crime that can be committed in a finite lifetime. If your idea of god thinks otherwise than that idea is unjust.

(September 26, 2014 at 12:17 am)Jenny A Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 9:58 pm)Lek Wrote: You're saying that God's punishment is unjust. Your example would be unjust, but God's punishment is not.

Yes I am saying eternal punishment is unjust for any crime that can be committed in a finite lifetime. If your idea of god thinks otherwise than that idea is unjust.

I'm not sure that punishment in hell is eternal, but I believe God is just.

God isn't subject to his own standards. Special pleading.

(September 26, 2014 at 7:16 am)robvalue Wrote: God isn't subject to his own standards. Special pleading.

God exceeds the standards he sets for us, but he is not subject to the consequences of sin in the world as we are. Jesus, though he was God, became human, and thus, subjected himself to the consequences of sin, such as suffering and death.