And aoi magi orthodox recognise the sin of Adam and Eve. We believe that that sin made it possible for humans to sin.

The greek word for sin is amartia which means missing the mark. The goal is achieving union with god and sinning makes us divert from the path of being "like" god ( called theosis)

That's confusing... you said we get to go to god either way, and at the end it's just a choice if we accept his presence or not which defines heaven and hell, right? So what is the point of missing the mark?

(October 18, 2014 at 12:06 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Well to each their own

But you know the Orthodox Church (whose teachings haven't been changed since the day of Pentecost where the apostles received the holy spirit) has a very different view of hell. I know you're not interested but what's the harm right?

We believe that hell and heaven both have god in them (as you know . . . god is everywhere) The only difference is that those who love God will enjoy being with god and those who hate god won't be able to stand the presence of God and will therefore "gnash their teeth." That will be the greatest punishment possible.
Also we believe that if we pray for the dead, they will be forgiven and if they regret their hatred they will enjoy the same things as the faithful enjoy.
This idea sounds foreign right? Don't worry. As a matter of fact, this teaching has been unchanged since like 32/ 33 AD.

I could also provide my reasoning for why Jesus really existed in the middle east (holy or not) if anyone wants

So the greatest punishment possible is ... an eternity of bruxism?

Meh. Kind of an aggravation, I guess. But I'd rather go through an eternity of minor headaches and achy jaws than spend a second with Bible God.

(October 18, 2014 at 11:10 am)Thackerie Wrote: So the greatest punishment possible is ... an eternity of bruxism?

Meh. Kind of an aggravation, I guess. But I'd rather go through an eternity of minor headaches and achy jaws than spend a second with Bible God.

...which would equate to a major headache and back-pain from bowing constantly, and major achy jaws from praising constantly....

(October 18, 2014 at 9:28 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Yes you are correct, however religion is capable of brainwashing sane adults too unless they are already questioning it. For example many religious organizations will offer food and shelter to the poor and homeless while slowly indoctrinating them to the respective faith system.

Brainwashed? Sure, there are cults and other groups (religious and otherwise) that take some pretty extreme approaches with their members, but I don't think that's the general experience of people growing up in a free, but religious society. Instead, it's just that most religions tell a pretty good story. Most are pretty good story tellers too. As a whole it has a lot of experience answering questions too. People sharing those religions are doing so because they believe in it, they enjoy the religion, and they want to share that enjoyment. They aren't evil monster's that need to be stopped. :-)

All that said, the promise of dire afterlife consequences is an inherent coersion within all the Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, and probably many others. Anyone who didn't leave their religious beliefs via a sudden and convincing epiphany can surely attest to it's effect. Even though I had lost all confidence in religious belief by my mid teens, I didn't lose my "what if I'm wrong" fears until I was about 30. Oddly, it took me that long to finally accept without a doubt what was obvious to me at a very young age. Coersion, intended by my peers and elders or not, is very effective!

Simply putting it . . . Sin diverts us from our ultimate aim of being god like (note- not being god)
sin, according to what we believe, is a disease/ condition in which we lack the grace of God ( that means god still loves us but is disappointed. Therefore sin keeps us far from god. Believing in christ, confessing and other sacraments allow us to reunite with god
I know this explanation will sound ridiculous to you and someone's going to find a loophole to trap me in my words. But that's just me answering your question with my point of view.

As for the question about heaven. Jesus said not everyone who calls him lord will enter heaven because if you think sinning is ok, how can you say you love god? If you don't want to let god down you would try not to sin on purpose you don't really want to be in gods presence and will be troubled if you have to be. Hence being with god becomes hell.
Can they be saved? Yes. Living people can pray for the dead on sundays when the church signifies that saints have come down to listen to you ( this is communion of saints) Whatever happens to the deceased in hell is left to whether he or she accepts god after that.
I would choose to go into God's presence knowing I've done the best I could to achieve theosis (becoming god like) instead of having to hang my head in shame. What's the difference between being in hell where we are troubled by gods presence, and being in heaven where we feel we've betrayed someone who loves us no matter what.

And thackerie good joke

P.s - there's no original sin " stain" either

(October 18, 2014 at 11:31 am)Vivalarevolution Wrote: Simply putting it . . . Sin diverts us from our ultimate aim of being god like (note- not being god)

I see, so kind of like mormonism? You become god like and go create your own worlds? cause I don't see much point to being god like if we are just going to spend all eternity worshiping him.

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(October 18, 2014 at 11:23 am)TreeSapNest Wrote: People sharing those religions are doing so because they believe in it, they enjoy the religion, and they want to share that enjoyment. They aren't evil monster's that need to be stopped. :-)

Brainwashing doesn't involve monsters or "evil" acts, all it means is that those who are brainwashed believe in something to stubbornly to even consider any other explanations or facts.

(October 18, 2014 at 11:23 am)TreeSapNest Wrote: All that said, the promise of dire afterlife consequences is an inherent coersion within all the Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, and probably many others.

No, in Hinduism you don't get a special eternal afterlife, concept of swarga/naraka aren't exactly the heaven and hell concept they are translated to these days. As per Hinduism, you just get to die for a final time without having to be stuck in the life-death cycle forever, kind of like Buddhism. The original concept was/is that God or Parmatma is a the original soul and we and everything in existence are little pieces of that soul, which go through the life-death cycle to purify themselves so they can reunite back with the actual grand-soul. There is no indication that we retain any consciousness or individuality when that happens. Also the swarga/naraka which were added later on are like a detention in your school. If you did good, you get to rest up a bit in swarga, and if you've been bad you get temporary detention in naraka before resuming the cycle.


Ok sorry about the rant, you can get back to topic now

Quote:Incorrect yet again. The 6th century B.C. (which is when most sceptically thinking scholars believe the O.T. to be written) - was written at a time of widespread literacy among the Jews.

The N.T. was also written in a time of high literacy rates.

Not likely, Danny. What we have written from that time/place are mainly commercial in nature. These were pre-literate societies. A handful of scribes worked for the elites and took care of the record keeping. When Finkelstein and Redford assert that the OT tales were written in the late 7th/early 6th centuries it must be taken in the context that few people could 'read' and even fewer could 'write.' Creating the story as an oral tale which could be told to the masses makes much more sense.

We have no evidence whatsoever that there was any great literary center in Jerusalem.

For more on the subject I suggest:
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?i...0674033818

Quote:Ancient Literacy
William V. Harris

Harris estimates that even in that alleged paragon of enlightenment, Athens, only some 5% of the population was literate at all and only the top tier of that capable of reading advanced philosophical texts.

There are degrees of literacy. The Romans taught their soldiers rudimentary Latin for army record-keeping. But being able to read the duty roster to see who is cleaning the latrines is a far cry from reading Plato in Greek which is what the elites were doing.

(October 18, 2014 at 11:43 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Brainwashing doesn't involve monsters or "evil" acts, all it means is that those who are brainwashed believe in something to stubbornly to even consider any other explanations or facts.

No worries. I just take brainwashing to mean altering the beliefs of another through coersion. The brainwashed, the coersees if you will. :-)

The conscequence exists in Hinduism just the same. Practice = grand soul. Failure = no grand soul. Ye be caste a little one for all eternity, you will. :-)

(October 18, 2014 at 11:23 am)TreeSapNest Wrote:

(October 18, 2014 at 9:28 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: Yes you are correct, however religion is capable of brainwashing sane adults too unless they are already questioning it. For example many religious organizations will offer food and shelter to the poor and homeless while slowly indoctrinating them to the respective faith system.

Brainwashed? Sure, there are cults and other groups (religious and otherwise) that take some pretty extreme approaches with their members, but I don't think that's the general experience of people growing up in a free, but religious society. Instead, it's just that most religions tell a pretty good story. Most are pretty good story tellers too. As a whole it has a lot of experience answering questions too. People sharing those religions are doing so because they believe in it, they enjoy the religion, and they want to share that enjoyment. They aren't evil monster's that need to be stopped. :-)

I mostly agree but don't forget most religious people aren't convinced of their faith as adults. No, they are brought up to believe incredible things by their parents and community from whom they learn almost every ordinary thing they believe. Kids are sponges that sop up what is around them. No brain washing is required. Sadly they are imprinted with absurd beliefs at a time when their brains are largely blank and receptive to begin with.