Quote:Could you provide bible verses for this, GC? I have read the bible all the way through and don't remember having read that the reason that god didn't want humans to live forever was so they wouldn't be miserable.

I wouldn't mind living forever if my loved ones lived with me but it isn't something important to me either. It doesn't frighten me that I will just end when I die.

Quote:There are no verses in that story that directly say that, however when one reads the whole Bible and pays the slightest attention to he/she is reading he/she would actually see what sin does to people. Then only those who really care to learn to live a life close to God would actually understand.

GC

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How is it possible that Jewish people read the Old Testament and do not believe in the concept of original sin? I found a site that discusses the Jewish view and it seems in line with what I have read in other places.

http://outreachjudaism.org/original-sin/

Quote:Despite the zealous position missionaries take as they defend this creed, the Christian doctrine of original sin is profoundly hostile to the central teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. The Torah loudly condemns the alien teaching that man is unable to freely choose good over evil, life over death. This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish Scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in Moses’ famed teachings to the children of Israel.

In fact, in an extraordinary sermon delivered by Moses in the last days of his life, the prophet stands before the entire nation and condemns the notion that man’s condition is utterly hopeless. Throughout this uplifting exhortation, Moses declared that it is man alone who can and must merit his own salvation. Moreover, as he unhesitatingly speaks in the name of God, the lawgiver excoriates the notion that obedience to the Almighty is “too difficult or far off.” According, he declared to the children of Israel that righteousness has been placed within their reach. The thirtieth chapter of Deuteronomy discusses this matter extensively, and its verses read as though the Torah is bracing the Jewish people for the Christian doctrines that would confront them in the centuries to come. As the last Book of the Pentateuch draws to a close, Moses admonishes his young nation not to question their capacity to remain faithful to the mitzvoth of the Torah

(November 28, 2014 at 5:14 pm)Nope Wrote: Could you provide bible verses for this, GC? I have read the bible all the way through and don't remember having read that the reason that god didn't want humans to live forever was so they wouldn't be miserable.

I wouldn't mind living forever if my loved ones lived with me but it isn't something important to me either. It doesn't frighten me that I will just end when I die.

GC Wrote:

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There are no verses in that story that directly say that, however when one reads the whole Bible and pays the slightest attention to he/she is reading he/she would actually see what sin does to people. Then only those who really care to learn to live a life close to God would actually understand.

GC

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Quote:How is it possible that Jewish people read the Old Testament and do not believe in the concept of original sin? I found a site that discusses the Jewish view and it seems in line with what I have read in other places.

http://outreachjudaism.org/original-sin/

Quote:Despite the zealous position missionaries take as they defend this creed, the Christian doctrine of original sin is profoundly hostile to the central teachings of the Jewish Scriptures. The Torah loudly condemns the alien teaching that man is unable to freely choose good over evil, life over death. This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish Scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in Moses’ famed teachings to the children of Israel.

In fact, in an extraordinary sermon delivered by Moses in the last days of his life, the prophet stands before the entire nation and condemns the notion that man’s condition is utterly hopeless. Throughout this uplifting exhortation, Moses declared that it is man alone who can and must merit his own salvation. Moreover, as he unhesitatingly speaks in the name of God, the lawgiver excoriates the notion that obedience to the Almighty is “too difficult or far off.” According, he declared to the children of Israel that righteousness has been placed within their reach. The thirtieth chapter of Deuteronomy discusses this matter extensively, and its verses read as though the Torah is bracing the Jewish people for the Christian doctrines that would confront them in the centuries to come. As the last Book of the Pentateuch draws to a close, Moses admonishes his young nation not to question their capacity to remain faithful to the mitzvoth of the Torah

The Jews for the most part even missed the Savior and the OT is the foretelling of Him, go figure.

GC

Quote:How is it possible that Jewish people read the Old Testament and do not believe in the concept of original sin?

I don't know how rabbis actually interpret this aspect of Genesis but think that while religious people believe in their scriptures they try to some extent to avoid moments that are uncomfortable to them such as contradictions or extremities (what they subjectively treat as unjustice, extreme violence or moral burden). Mild believers try to avoid both contradictions and extremities while fundamentalists try to avoid mostly contradictions (as extremities don't pose that much threat to their faith). So as soon as the concept of Original Sin isn't so specifically outlined (thus is easier to avoid) in Judaism (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not surprising that people don't make a deal out of it. Also as far as I know Original Sin is used profoundly in anti-semitic rhetorics so this may actually be the main reason why it isn't given spotlight I guess.

(November 28, 2014 at 5:32 pm)Smaug Wrote:

Quote:How is it possible that Jewish people read the Old Testament and do not believe in the concept of original sin?

I don't know how rabbis actually interpret this aspect of Genesis but think that while religious people believe in their scriptures they try to some extent to avoid moments that are uncomfortable to them such as contradictions or extremities (what they subjectively treat as unjustice, extreme violence or moral burden). Mild believers try to avoid both contradictions and extremities while fundamentalists try to avoid mostly contradictions (as extremities don't pose that much threat to their faith). So as soon as the concept of Original Sin isn't so specifically outlined (thus is easier to avoid) in Judaism (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not surprising that people don't make a deal out of it. Also as far as I know Original Sin is used profoundly in anti-semitic rhetorics so this may actually be the main reason why it isn't given spotlight I guess.

When you read the Old Testament in context without the influence of Christianity, there really isn't anything that indicates there is original sin. Sure biblical people did bad things and talk about how much greater god is then they are but there isn't any real concept of original sin.

From the same article that I quoted in my other post.

Quote:While in Christian theology Job’s personal spiritual triumph is a theological impossibility, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of God’s salvation program for mankind. Job didn’t rely on Jesus to save him and he certainly did not turn to the cross for his redemption; rather, it was his obedience to God that made his life a paradigm for all humanity.

If such a character as Jesus existed, he wouldn't have understood original sin because he was Jewish. The religion Christianity made up the idea of original sin to explain why a savior was needed.

Quote:When you read the Old Testament in context without the influence of Christianity, there really isn't anything that indicates there is original sin.

I think it's more of a matter of tradition. Otherwise these chapters are very convinient to interpret in many ways. That's probably how Christians came up with the Original Sin in the first place (though I'd have to point out that I don't know whether there ever were similar Jewish interpretations or not). It isn't hard to interpret the text this way.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(November 27, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: And to point out a contradiction of sorts not often mentioned in this passage: death is one of the punishments received for the applebite (according to Genesis 2:17), which implies that before the sin, humans were immortal.

You're correct they were going to live for eternity, scripture makes it clear that sin leaded to death, no sin no death.

Okay.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote:

Parks Wrote:And yet when then see this curiously ignorant deity ("might"? Wasn't he supposed to know everything?) worried that humans might live forever.

God wasn't worried about them living forever after they sinned, He was worried they would live forever in sin, having to grow more miserable day by day forever, they would be living in hell without the possibility of forgiveness. Hell on earth. God's plan was to redeem man so they could return to a relationship with Him.

Chapter and verse, please, to support the underlined passage. I haven't seen that elucidated in any version of the Bible I've read.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote:

Parks Wrote:If they weren't immortal before the first sin, then death was no punishment.

Now you're getting it, keep looking and you can see more of the truth.

I've already kept looking. That search led inevitably to my loss of faith.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote:

Parks Wrote:And if they were immortal before the first sin, why should there be created a tree of life and death,

Oops, now you have slipped back into not actually knowing what the scriptures say, you need to get these things correct if you plan on arguing against them. It was and is the Tree of Life, no death is associated with it. The tree of life was there for them to eat from, it wasn't put off limit.

You're experiencing English-comprehension failure, and tying the issuance of the death penalty to the tree, where I did not say the magic tree was associated with death.

Your deity was clearly worried that humans might eat from the Tree of Life being become immortal. But ... they were already.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote:

Parks Wrote:and why should the deity worry that humans might become immortal?

Like I explained above [... bullshit snipped...]

Yes, and I look forward to the chapter and verse supporting that claim being posted ... not that I'm holding my breath.

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(November 28, 2014 at 4:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: There are no verses in that story that directly say that, however when one reads the whole Bible and pays the slightest attention to he/she is reading he/she would actually see what sin does to people. Then only those who really care to learn to live a life close to God would actually understand.

GC

Oh, I see. Your reading is right, and mine is wrong, simply because you say so.

Color me unconvinced ... especially now that I've seen your abysmal reading skills.

(November 28, 2014 at 6:33 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: God wasn't worried about them living forever after they sinned, He was worried they would live forever in sin, having to grow more miserable day by day forever, they would be living in hell without the possibility of forgiveness. Hell on earth. God's plan was to redeem man so they could return to a relationship with Him.

Chapter and verse, please, to support the underlined passage. I haven't seen that elucidated in any version of the Bible I've read.

You posted my response to that question, below. If you've read the Bible and can't see the misery sin brings then you've messed one of the big reasons for forgiveness.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now you're getting it, keep looking and you can see more of the truth.

Quote:I've already kept looking. That search led inevitably to my loss of faith.

If that's the case then you went into it without allowing the Holy Spirit's guidance.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Oops, now you have slipped back into not actually knowing what the scriptures say, you need to get these things correct if you plan on arguing against them. It was and is the Tree of Life, no death is associated with it. The tree of life was there for them to eat from, it wasn't put off limit.

Quote:You're experiencing English-comprehension failure, and tying the issuance of the death penalty to the tree, where I did not say the magic tree was associated with death.

You said the tree was created as the tree of life and death in post #376.

Quote:Your deity was clearly worried that humans might eat from the Tree of Life being become immortal. But ... they were already.

Not when the statement you referenced was made, by that part of the story the sin had been committed and the punishment given. Same post.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:03 pm)Godschild Wrote: Like I explained above [... bullshit snipped...]

Parker Tan Wrote:

(November 28, 2014 at 4:26 pm)Godschild Wrote: There are no verses in that story that directly say that, however when one reads the whole Bible and pays the slightest attention to he/she is reading he/she would actually see what sin does to people. Then only those who really care to learn to live a life close to God would actually understand.

GC

Quote:Oh, I see. Your reading is right, and mine is wrong, simply because you say so.

Color me unconvinced ... especially now that I've seen your abysmal reading skills.

No, because the scriptures support what I stated and my reading skills in the scriptures are more accomplished than yours.

GC

GC quick question how would you feel to get punished for something you had no control over and never did?

(November 28, 2014 at 7:47 pm)dyresand Wrote: GC quick question how would you feel to get punished for something you had no control over and never did?

I wouldn't like it.

GC

(November 28, 2014 at 4:46 pm)Smaug Wrote: Garden of Eden verses from Genesis may be also interpreted as a story of attaining maturity (a common motive in myths). From the beginning of their lives Adam a Eve lived in the Garden of Eden care-free, happily ignorant and with only authority coming from God (their parent). But once they found out that there are other opinions than their parent's and contradicting information in general, they made their first really independent choice and disobeyed (rebelled, which was a sign that they may enter independant life). From now on they live their care-free childhood behind and face never before seen hardships: different responsibilities and necessities of grown-up life.

As for the literal interpretation, it doesn't make sense in any way other than as a heavy-duty tool of ideological indoctrination and supression.

What were the Assyrians, Ethiopians, Persians, and Arabs doing while Adam & Eve were running around naked in the Garden of Eden? They were just down the road from the Garden of Eden.