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RE: Is free will real?
December 15, 2014 at 1:34 pm
(December 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm)IATIA Wrote: My personal dichotomy is either 'free will' is 100% biochemical responses or 100% external to the body (which leads into a whole nother discussion). This is, if any awareness is not 100% controlled/created by the biochemical processes of the body, there is no reason to believe that 100% of my awareness cannot be separate from the body. (And that again leads into a whole nother discussion).
What reason is there for it to be more free if it were 100% external to the body?
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RE: Is free will real?
December 15, 2014 at 1:40 pm
(December 15, 2014 at 1:34 pm)Chuck Wrote: (December 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm)IATIA Wrote: My personal dichotomy is either 'free will' is 100% biochemical responses or 100% external to the body (which leads into a whole nother discussion). This is, if any awareness is not 100% controlled/created by the biochemical processes of the body, there is no reason to believe that 100% of my awareness cannot be separate from the body. (And that again leads into a whole nother discussion).
What reason is there for it to be more free if it were 100% external to the body?
Exactly!
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Is free will real?
December 15, 2014 at 1:46 pm
(December 15, 2014 at 1:34 pm)Chuck Wrote: What reason is there for it to be more free if it were 100% external to the body? Simply put, no chemicals generating the 'free will'. But I understand that this begs the question of what is awareness.
I do not have a better answer than anyone else, only my opinions.
It has been shown that chemicals and electrical stimuli can induce various reactions and emotions in humans which suggests that we are no more than biochemical robots programmed by evolution. There was even an experiment done in the 70s that suggests our brains 'make up' stories to account for our perceptions and this fools our awareness into thinking that we have free will.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 15, 2014 at 9:09 pm
free will is like the freedom to go any ware you want. Walk around barefoot in a robe (commando style) with a cane and sandals you might just believe it.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 16, 2014 at 12:01 am
(This post was last modified: December 16, 2014 at 12:03 am by Mudhammam.)
(December 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Everyone lives as if they had free will but only those who believe in determinism live what they believe to be a lie. Living a lie? I don't follow. I'm quite aware that given the infinitely complex and unknown conditions necessary for the rise of what are ultimately the strongest thoughts, instincts, and motives of an illusory self, a sense of freedom naturally follows.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Is free will real?
December 16, 2014 at 12:31 am
A robot is completely free to act like a robot. And a human is completely free to act like a human. That neither could do otherwise doesn't change the fact that literally everything I do is exactly as it is in my nature to do-- and this ability to act according to one's nature is really all one can mean by the words "free will."
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RE: Is free will real?
December 16, 2014 at 9:17 am
(This post was last modified: December 16, 2014 at 9:19 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Speaking of people and robots, and what may be or seem to be free. Suppose that hard determinism accounted for my every thought or action - I am entirely ignorant of what goes into it's totality, of even a tiny fraction of the variables.....
So what?
I must "make choices" just to get through the day. I don't do it because I think my will is free, or that free will is "true", but because I have no practical alternative. I also know that chocolate is not "better" than vanilla...but go ahead and ask me that question and see how I answer. It doesn't matter if "make choices" is interchangeable with "participate in a biochemical charade" - I'm going to do it anyway, not because I'm living a lie (or interested in living a lie, or believe that I am living a lie), but simply because I'm living.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is free will real?
December 16, 2014 at 9:40 am
(December 15, 2014 at 1:46 pm)IATIA Wrote: It has been shown that chemicals and electrical stimuli can induce various reactions and emotions in humans which suggests that we are no more than biochemical robots programmed by evolution.
Obviously we are biochemical robots programmed by God to simulate free will. It is part of how He rationalizes His vindictiveness.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 16, 2014 at 10:58 am
(December 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm)IATIA Wrote: (December 15, 2014 at 5:22 am)ManMachine Wrote: ... it is our belief in free will (unique in the animal kingdom) that keeps us mentally separated from other animals. I disagree with that statement.
First, there seems to no agreement on exactly what free will is.
I live out in the sticks and we have acquired cats through various drop offs and wanderings. IMHO, these cats demonstrate personalities and free will that appears indistinguishable from humans. This is not to suggest that their awareness is or is not at the same level.
I have argued in the past as unsuccessfully as everyone else on my opinion relating to free will.
The biggest problem is that I do not know myself if I truly have free will, which makes it hard to argue against someone else's opinion.
My personal dichotomy is either 'free will' is 100% biochemical responses or 100% external to the body (which leads into a whole nother discussion). This is, if any awareness is not 100% controlled/created by the biochemical processes of the body, there is no reason to believe that 100% of my awareness cannot be separate from the body. (And that again leads into a whole nother discussion).
You are quite correct in that there is no universal definition of Free Will, but I said "... it is our belief in free will..." and since when did a poorly defined concept stop humans believing in it?
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Is free will real?
December 16, 2014 at 11:29 am
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