Yea...I will just agree to disagree.

(December 16, 2014 at 5:29 pm)Losty Wrote: Yea...I will just agree to disagree.

So be it.

I would venture to say that most actions are selfish, and disregard the well-being of others, but are not unethical. Ethical statements imply a societal duty, that is, an obligation imposed by your fellow creatures that follows from your ontological or social status; for example, being a responsible parent once you have decided to bring a child into the world and have procured no other means for its survival, or the duty to respect others' property as one member in a community where each person demands some measure of freedom, opportunity, and benefit for their cooperation.

Are we obliged to friends and relatives to never renounce the relationship, or to always submit to their wishes, or even to simply exist for the sake of their pleasure, comfort, and security? I don't see how that is so.

Contrarily, I can see where suicide might be considered ethical.

(December 16, 2014 at 6:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: I would venture to say that most actions are selfish, and disregard the well-being of others, but are not unethical.

Okay, there's a start. Could you give concrete examples?

(December 16, 2014 at 9:29 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 6:20 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: I would venture to say that most actions are selfish, and disregard the well-being of others, but are not unethical.

Okay, there's a start. Could you give concrete examples?

Well, if I eat at a fancy restaurant, or throw my leftover food away, or buy new clothes, or own an expensive sports car, or a million other harmless, mundane, activities that people sometimes like to enjoy, and I'm conscious of millions of homeless and hungry men, women, and children, am I being unethical? Defining unethical behavior as selfishness with disregard for others is pretty damning for most self-gratifying pleasures we partake in.

I have had suicidal thoughts. What keeps me from doing it is really that I see this life as one opportunity to form your mark on your soul and also the effect suicide will have on family.

Although my thoughts of suicide were never too serious, more like, feeling it would be just easier if I end it.

But lately I've been feeling liking leaving this world. I'm also afraid of how I can face my maker with such on undignified way of leaving. Also, it seems to be ungratefulness, not appreciating the opportunity of life.

I don't know how unethical suicide is or not, but it just seems that living is more ethical then choosing to kill yourself.

I don't only say this from the point of view of the harm it comes to others, but that you are not giving yourself the proper respect.

Also, I don't think suicide thoughts are rational with me as a schizophrenic, it comes to me irrationally...I just look at my life negatively as if I've been suffering more then non-suffering and peace, which is not true...but when the thoughts come...it feels like that and even though I know it's not true, it feels like that...

(December 14, 2014 at 8:15 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Why do people keep shifting the moral burden away from the one actually contemplating the act? Suicide is a violent act, and the person committing the act knows that they will leave victims behind. They have chosen to commit the act anyway, because the cessation of their own pain is more important to them than the prevention of suffering in others.

If knowingly acting in a way that will cause harm to others isn't unethical, then ethics is a meaningless term.

The fact is, those victims are willing victims, for the most part; with the exception of children, they have chosen to care. They accept the risk that loving a person embodies, the risk that all loves carry in their germs, that we might be hurt, even by the object of our love -- as happens not just by those of us who have been left behind by a suicide, but those of us who have been hurt by lovers, or friends, or any other relationship freely accepted.

Do you owe another person one day of your life?

That is the real question here.

My other question is, what real value is your way of viewing ethics? What practical purpose does that system have?

(December 16, 2014 at 10:50 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(December 16, 2014 at 9:29 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Okay, there's a start. Could you give concrete examples?

Well, if I eat at a fancy restaurant, or throw my leftover food away, or buy new clothes, or own an expensive sports car, or a million other harmless, mundane, activities that people sometimes like to enjoy, and I'm conscious of millions of homeless and hungry men, women, and children, am I being unethical? Defining unethical behavior as selfishness with disregard for others is pretty damning for most self-gratifying pleasures we partake in.

Yes, this is a bit of a sticky wicket, isn't it? On the one hand, I think you could see the excesses of the Western world as highly unethical (and I'm sure people all over the world do see it that way). You have people 400lb plus eating steak dinners every night, when the 6000 calories they take in a day could support about 3 poor people. And if you look at it economically, a single $50 steak dinner could provide for an entire family for a week. Certainly, I think a strong ethical code should involve some degree of self-moderation, if not strict asceticism.

On the other hand, many poor people live in cultures whose ethics do not match ours. Treatment of women and children, for example, is pretty poor in Africa, India, and parts of Asia. Is it ethical to promote the strengthening of those cultures? I'm not sure.

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(December 17, 2014 at 2:55 am)robvalue Wrote: My other question is, what real value is your way of viewing ethics? What practical purpose does that system have?

The consideration of others in deciding on behaviors could mediate some of those behaviors. I'm sure there are many borderline suicide cases where those who care about their families and friends either avoid or delay their suicide-- Robin Williams being a good example. I'm sorry he killed himself, but he did a great good for many people-- including encouraging threads like this where we challenge each other to think about the ramifications of an act like that.

So in short, I think an ethical system could prevent some suicides, possibly long enough for a person to outgrow some of the issues that make life hard to live.

Sure, I would have killed myself several years ago, the only reason I haven't is because of how it would affect my wife and those around me. Literally. If it would affect no one, I'd go out and do it right now.

I understand that helping to support and encourage suicidal people is very important. But my question remains, how do we implement these "ethics" you speak of? Do we educate, enforce or coerce? I see no other methods. I'm all for education and support, but not enforcement or coercion when it comes to your own life. And teaching people what is ethical, by some rigid standard, is the very problem with religion.

So what is your practical suggestion?

(As always normal caveats apply)