(December 17, 2014 at 1:44 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well...you did start the conversation (and the OP) by trying to link atheism with misogyny and sexism as if it weren't a part of culture independent of atheism..

Again, this is false. I asked if it were preferable to include humanism alongside atheism, and if such a movement would help curb sexism and improve acceptance of gays given that pure atheism is indifferent to these requirements.

If that somehow means I've linked atheism to sexism, you lot need to go through the list of logical fallacies you so love pointing out in theist posts. And this time actually read it.

(December 17, 2014 at 1:50 pm)SoFarEast Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 1:44 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Well...you did start the conversation (and the OP) by trying to link atheism with misogyny and sexism as if it weren't a part of culture independent of atheism..

Again, this is false. I asked if it were preferable to include humanism alongside atheism, and if such a movement would help curb sexism and improve acceptance of gays given that pure atheism is indifferent to these requirements.

If that somehow means I've linked atheism to sexism, you lot need to go through the list of logical fallacies you so love pointing out in theist posts. And this time actually read it.

Fair enough. Then title your thread better next time. Perhaps literally what you just said about focusing on humanism.

I've been puzzling over this thread all morning. Mostly because I have mixed feelings about it.

I don't find sexism or homophobia on this forum, particularly not perpetrated by atheists. And I don't see it watching the Atheist Experience. And I don't find anything anti-feminist in Dawkins' books and he is outspoken about genital mutilation of women (hint--he's against it).

I'm sure on the other hand that Watkins experiences are real. Most skeptic groups are predominately male. If you go there as a woman and begin to preach about not making sexist comments, there will be a backlash from the type of guy who makes sexist comments. And there's certainly some ugly stuff out there.

One of Watkins blog entries shows screen shots from Reddit of atheism male comments about a teen age atheist girl who posted a picture of herself with a Carl Sagan book. http://skepchick.org/2011/12/reddit-make...-atheists/ And yes the comments are appalling.



And no, I don't think the girl did anything to provoke such comments. BUT, I think this has to do more with on-line culture than atheism. I've heard similar complaints from women posting on auto-restoration forums too. And I've seen the comments and they are equally bad. Yes, something should be said. No, it doesn't have to do with atheism or auto-restoration. It has to do with on-line culture.

I will add that I spent most of my working and school life in predominately male groups. Yes, I did get propositioned from time to time, but then if you are the only women in a group of 30 men it goes with the territory. What I didn't feel was threatened. The internet allows some cowardly sexists to threaten in a way they would not in person. It's the internet.

(December 17, 2014 at 5:22 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Yeah. No one can just have "Atheism".

So true it doesn't even require capitalization.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Each has extensions.

Now you're getting into a tricky area. Extensions of atheism, or extensions of atheists?

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: There are scientific atheists, rational atheists but also fascist atheists, racist atheists.

Yep. But not scientific atheism, rational atheism, fascist atheism, or racist atheism.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: But the problem I feel is the generic idea of atheism which everyone claims to identify with is pure non belief.

Yet you seem to acknowledge that it is factually the case that atheism is not believing in real supernatural deities, so it's unclear why this is a problem for you.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Yet, the extensions are inevitable.

None of what you described is an extension of atheism. Christianity is not an 'extension' of theism, it's a theistic religion. Black clothes are not an 'extension' of blackness, they're just clothes that are black. Theism is ALSO nothing more than believing that at least one supernatural deity is real and doesn't say anything at all about a person's morality or political stances or, really, much of anything at all. You learn a LOT more about a theist when you learn what ELSE they are. In a more reasonable world, people would no more assume they know your other opinions if they know you're an atheist than they would assume they know all about you if all they know is that you're a theist. But that's not the world we live in. 'Atheist' is a meaningful identity precisely because SO many people don't understand that it's no more than it is. Even other atheists are often confused about it.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Why not append the emptiness of pure atheism into something meaningful?

Everybody who is an atheist...and I mean EVERYBODY...does. So do theists. Pure theism is nearly meaning-free, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not supposed to carry loads of meaning. Why should atheism be different in that regard?

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: But when an atheist indulges in bad behavior in the name of freedom, and when others say it's not my problem "I'm just a non believer". How do you deal with that?

Rather than holding anyone who happens to agree with that person on one single thing responsible, I address the person behaving badly myself.

(December 17, 2014 at 3:15 am)SoFarEast Wrote: I'm clueless too as to what the solution is.

To humans sometimes being mean? There isn't one that's ethical to impose.

(December 17, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Cato Wrote: - gang rapes
- acid attacks
- young women considered a financial burden due to practice of dowry
- bride burning (a means to settle a d
- stigma for birthing females
- prevalence for female fetus abortion. Last 50 years, female births per 1000 male births has dropped from 976 to 914. There are 7 million fewer females under the age of 6 than males.

And you have the audacity to stroll into these forums pretending to not understand the source of misogyny in your culture with the added charge that atheism displays cult like misogynistic behavior because of facebook posts and isolated examples of individual unscrupulous non-criminal behavior?

Oblivious dolt. Go fuck yourself!

And btw, if you knew anything about acid attacks you'd know why non-criminal facebook posts are also matters to worry about. There are instances where girls rejecting guys over phone messages have had acid straight out of a car battery split on their faces.

Non - criminal behavior. The fuck do you know.

(December 17, 2014 at 1:48 pm)Alex K Wrote: Bullshit, Jenny A. Read up on the history how it played out

What is bullshit? What Watkins said happened? My reaction to it? What Dawkins did next?

(December 17, 2014 at 5:28 am)SoFarEast Wrote: Agree with you entirely. I am not redefining atheism, don't want to do it surely. I just hope that atheists would start addressing some severe problems in their midst, without the "Don't ask me, I'm just a disbeliever" or "It's called freedom".

The first is pointing out that they aren't responsble for the behavior of others just because they agree on one topic, and the second is poining out that freedom actually does include a right to behave in ways of which the majority does not approve. You admit yourself that there is no solution, why be cross with other people for not offering a solution?

Now, where atheists ARE in organized groups where atheists are the overwhelming majority, the leadership of those groups are in a position to set ground rules, or at least plead for them. Random person X on the comment section of a video isn't in such a position.

Misogyny, homophobia, etc. does not naturally flow from atheism. It just doesn't. There's no connective tissue between "I don't believe in a deity" and "I hate gays," for example.

What you're seeing is likely young, single, nerdy males acting like idiots. That has zero to do with religious beliefs (or the lack thereof). How do you stop it? Stand up for yourself. Come to the defense of others. Make it clear that fuckwitery has no place in civilized society. You won't change the world, and you'll likely receive some backlash yourself, but at least you'll be working to make your little corner of the world a better place. Which is about all anyone can do.

You get douchebags in every group.

(December 17, 2014 at 1:42 pm)SoFarEast Wrote:

(December 17, 2014 at 12:15 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I think you're making an overbroad generalization, and ignoring the deeper roots of misogyny and homophobia.

Hello Parkers.

No I am not making generalizations and am not ignoring its roots. I am arguing these atheist meetings are doing little in that matter, or that is my opinion. I am insisting someone address deeper misogyny, everyone else is busy telling me the definition of "Atheism".

Atheists and misogyny are not even linked.
if you follow history its always been religion doing misogynistic things.
in the middle east women have no rights and must be married off at a young age to a older man and some women end up in harems. In India there is caste system you can't move up or down the ladder you stay there.