Things beyond our understanding are useless to use because we can't do anything with them. we can't make judgements on whether it's good or bad. We see what kind of effects something has, and go with that. That's why we ended slavery, despite the bible approving of it. That's why more and more people recognize the rights of homosexuals, despite the bible disapproving of it. We don't know why someone would demand mass murder, but call homosexuality an abomination, but we know it's immoral to think that because of its effects. So we're not going to continue doing those things despite not knowing why.

(December 19, 2014 at 2:49 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(December 19, 2014 at 2:47 pm)abaris Wrote: Since you believe in the trinity, he didn't die at all. Period.

No matter how vigorous you do the tap dance around that issue. In your belief, all three are god, the same god, an eternal almighty god. That being cannot die even if it throws away a fleshy body it had chosen to inhabitate for a little while.

Isn't it funny how three things are the same god until the plot necessitates that they're actually unique and separate entities....

Its redundant for a trinity to exist or god to be 3 separate entities.
whats the point there really shouldn't be a trinity at all.

(December 19, 2014 at 1:35 pm)Lek Wrote:

(December 19, 2014 at 3:19 am)Esquilax Wrote: I live with two christians. My in-laws are christians. Some of the people I respect most in the world, old friends whom I still talk to today, are christians. I don't hate christians, but I freely admit to hating some of the beliefs that christianity tries its hardest to engender, and I won't be shamed for that. Some ideas are despicable, they deserve to be reviled. I'm sure you're with me, for example, in hating the idea of racism, or slavery.

No doubt you've taken my last statement and are attempting to find some way to spin it to justify your christian views, but you can stop with that right now. How do we determine which ideas are sufficiently negative to be hated? Rational justification is the first step, and it's also the step at which any christian claim fails: you're not going to be able to say that you revile sins like homosexuality in the way I've just described, because the justification for that (god wants it) does not pass even basic tests of rationality until you can demonstrate a god, his opinions, his authority, and the rational justification for those last two as well.

So let me get this straight. You live with two christians and have christian in-laws. You hate some of the views of christianity, but don't hate christians. That's okay. I have a homosexual brother and work with a homosexual whom I like and get along with well. I don't hate homosexuals, but I hate homosexual behavior. That's not okay. Is it because christianity is deserving of condemnation, but homosexual behavior is not?

Wow, you did precisely what I advised you not to do, even after my explanation of why you shouldn't.

The reason hating homosexuality or homosexual behavior is wrong, while hating certain christian tenets is okay, is because the former has no rational justification, while the latter does. In short, I hate specific christian tenets for reasons that are readily demonstrable- the bigotry, hate, violence and oppression that those beliefs can instil is well known, and hence easy to hate- while the reasons you use to justify your hatred of homosexual behavior (that god deemed it a sin) is not readily demonstrable in any respect, and hence not justifiable.

The reasons why you come to your opinions about something matter. In my case, I have good reasons. You do not, until you can demonstrate your god, his authority, that the bible reflects his opinions, and why those opinions should be followed.

(December 19, 2014 at 2:48 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Especially since heaven in the non-fleshy body is supposed to be soooo much better.

Oh except for that embarrassing fact that so many early Christians believed that it is that fleshy body that goes to heaven. Thus the people coming out of their graves, and Jesus' marks of crucifixion after resurrection. And thus the churches aversion to cremation, the fact that the body decomposes not withstanding.

We will have bodies after we die. We don't know if they will be the same flesh as we presently have, but Jesus ate food after his resurrection and walked and talked. We'll be living on the "new earth". I think some christian's aversion to cremation is based on a lack of understanding.

Even the damned will have to have physical bodies so that they might experience their eternal torment in hell.

(December 19, 2014 at 3:10 pm)Lek Wrote: We will have bodies after we die. We don't know if they will be the same flesh as we presently have, but Jesus ate food after his resurrection and walked and talked. We'll be living on the "new earth". I think some christian's aversion to cremation is based on a lack of understanding.

So what about the trinity and the phony death shtick of a mere third of the whole package?

(December 19, 2014 at 2:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Wow, you did precisely what I advised you not to do, even after my explanation of why you shouldn't.

The reason hating homosexuality or homosexual behavior is wrong, while hating certain christian tenets is okay, is because the former has no rational justification, while the latter does. In short, I hate specific christian tenets for reasons that are readily demonstrable- the bigotry, hate, violence and oppression that those beliefs can instil is well known, and hence easy to hate- while the reasons you use to justify your hatred of homosexual behavior (that god deemed it a sin) is not readily demonstrable in any respect, and hence not justifiable.

The reasons why you come to your opinions about something matter. In my case, I have good reasons. You do not, until you can demonstrate your god, his authority, that the bible reflects his opinions, and why those opinions should be followed.

So all this comes down to the conclusion that if I hate homosexual behavior that I also have to hate homosexuals, but if you hate christianan behavior, you don't have to hate christians. I disagree, but I'll leave it at that based on what I've already said.

I'd like to point out that apologists seem busier forgiving their god than their god is forgiving them.

(December 19, 2014 at 3:15 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Even the damned will have to have physical bodies so that they might experience their eternal torment in hell.

Yes, but I'm not sure that one's time in hell will be eternal. The bible does say he died to save us all.

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(December 19, 2014 at 3:18 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I'd like to point out that apologists seem busier forgiving their god than their god is forgiving them.

I'm not trying to absolve God of anything. What he does is right and just.

(December 19, 2014 at 3:21 pm)Lek Wrote: Yes, but I'm not sure that one's time in hell will be eternal. The bible does say he died to save us all.

Still tapping around the trinity issue I see.