(July 17, 2010 at 9:15 am)CoolBoy Wrote: This statement expresses my feelings exactly. I still have a niggling fear of hell, which stems from my religious past. I joined these forums to try to destroy these fears and I would appreciate it if you good people would read my struggle and offer any support or advice you can. Here is a link to my story.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-4171.html

Look at it like this: in the extremely unlikely event that hell turns out to be real, all the interesting people will be there, whereas heaven will be overwhelmingly populated by smug evangelists. So, an eternity in heaven is probably the most mind-numbingly dull and frustrating thing that could be devised for an atheist. Hell is where all the cool people would go.

On a serious note, I can imagine that it must be very hard to shake off your old indoctrination and deeply ingrained fears. All the available evidence, though, points to the obliteration of the self at death. Our emotions, thoughts, etc. can all be tracked to various brain states, so once the brain ceases to function, the logical conclusion would be that there's no more consciousness. Even if there were an existence after death, the chances that it's existence as described by Bible-bashing nutters is slimmer than a stick insect emulating Victoria Beckham.

(July 17, 2010 at 1:22 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote:

(July 17, 2010 at 9:15 am)CoolBoy Wrote: This statement expresses my feelings exactly. I still have a niggling fear of hell, which stems from my religious past. I joined these forums to try to destroy these fears and I would appreciate it if you good people would read my struggle and offer any support or advice you can. Here is a link to my story.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-4171.html

Look at it like this: in the extremely unlikely event that hell turns out to be real, all the interesting people will be there, whereas heaven will be overwhelmingly populated by smug evangelists. So, an eternity in heaven is probably the most mind-numbingly dull and frustrating thing that could be devised for an atheist. Hell is where all the cool people would go.

On a serious note, I can imagine that it must be very hard to shake off your old indoctrination and deeply ingrained fears. All the available evidence, though, points to the obliteration of the self at death. Our emotions, thoughts, etc. can all be tracked to various brain states, so once the brain ceases to function, the logical conclusion would be that there's no more consciousness. Even if there were an existence after death, the chances that it's existence as described by Bible-bashing nutters is slimmer than a stick insect emulating Victoria Beckham.

Thats assuming the evangelicals are right, could be the mormons!!

(July 17, 2010 at 1:59 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Thats assuming the evangelicals are right, could be the mormons!!

As Sam Harris says, Mormonism is less likely to be true, given that it's just Christianity plus some extra stupid beliefs.

How do you compare it to Christianity? (Mormon is one religion I don't know too much about)

With wikipedia.

(July 10, 2010 at 6:47 am)The Omnissiunt One Wrote:

(July 9, 2010 at 5:59 pm)sunflash Wrote: Hi,

In The God Delusion, Dawklns says (though I can't remember it word-for-word) that a someone who believes in hell can never be fully "deconverted."

Is he saying that people who believe in hell will always believe in it or at least worry that it might exist?

That's the gist of it, yes. After years of constant indoctrination and affirmation in a young and impressionable mind, it's a fear that'd be very hard to dispel. Much religious practice, I suspect, is motivated by a sort of subconscious Pascal's Wager consideration in the mind of the believer. Even I, as an atheist raised in a pretty secular household, sometimes worry what would happen if it turned out there was a hell. According to Dante, I'd be in the sixth circle, as a 'heretic'. Unless, that is, atheism counts as a betrayal of God, in which case it's the lowest circle of hell, where I'll be chewed up by one of Lucifer's three mouths, while having my body constantly torn apart and mangled. My one consolation would be that fortune tellers were in the eighth circle.

Does this mean that, going by the definition that if you can't shake off the irrational fear of eternal punishment, you're not a true atheist, you're not a true atheist yourself? Can someone please clarify?

---

(July 17, 2010 at 1:22 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote:

(July 17, 2010 at 9:15 am)CoolBoy Wrote: This statement expresses my feelings exactly. I still have a niggling fear of hell, which stems from my religious past. I joined these forums to try to destroy these fears and I would appreciate it if you good people would read my struggle and offer any support or advice you can. Here is a link to my story.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-4171.html

Look at it like this: in the extremely unlikely event that hell turns out to be real, all the interesting people will be there, whereas heaven will be overwhelmingly populated by smug evangelists. So, an eternity in heaven is probably the most mind-numbingly dull and frustrating thing that could be devised for an atheist. Hell is where all the cool people would go.

On a serious note, I can imagine that it must be very hard to shake off your old indoctrination and deeply ingrained fears. All the available evidence, though, points to the obliteration of the self at death. Our emotions, thoughts, etc. can all be tracked to various brain states, so once the brain ceases to function, the logical conclusion would be that there's no more consciousness. Even if there were an existence after death, the chances that it's existence as described by Bible-bashing nutters is slimmer than a stick insect emulating Victoria Beckham.

May I also point out something here. I am not defending the concept of hell in the slightest, and I have great confidence in myself when I say it's load of 'balony'- but the idea of hell, heaven, religon etc is that it can't be proven by science, and, whatever science may say, it cannot disprove an afterlife, god etc. Now while this is obviously a cop-out, going on this basis, your scientific point, while true, may not convince a Christian.

(July 22, 2010 at 5:54 am)Super Cynic Wrote: Does this mean that, going by the definition that if you can't shake off the irrational fear of eternal punishment, you're not a true atheist, you're not a true atheist yourself? Can someone please clarify?

For all intents and purposes, I am still an atheist. That I say it's irrational demonstrates that I don't actually believe it. It's like someone with OCD: they may repeatedly wash their hands to avert some disaster in their life, but that doesn't mean they actually believe it will avert a disaster; it's just a compulsion, as the name suggests.

May I also point out something here. I am not defending the concept of hell in the slightest, and I have great confidence in myself when I say it's load of 'balony'- but the idea of hell, heaven, religon etc is that it can't be proven by science, and, whatever science may say, it cannot disprove an afterlife, god etc. Now while this is obviously a cop-out, going on this basis, your scientific point, while true, may not convince a Christian.
[/quote]

No, it can't be disproven, but the apparent end of consciousness at death puts the onus very much on the believer to prove that consciousness does continue.

(July 17, 2010 at 9:59 am)Synackaon Wrote: Fear is the mind killer.

^^^
WHS

We are talking about fear of the unkown here aren't we??

(July 22, 2010 at 11:50 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(July 17, 2010 at 9:59 am)Synackaon Wrote: Fear is the mind killer.

^^^
WHS

We are talking about fear of the unkown here aren't we??

No, he is talking about fear of the Gom Jabbar. It is tipped with a poison that only kills animals you know...

(July 17, 2010 at 7:50 pm)Nitsuj Wrote: How do you compare it to Christianity? (Mormon is one religion I don't know too much about)

You should look into the mormon beliefs.
if only for a good laugh.