(December 31, 2014 at 8:18 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: The problem I see is analogous to evolution. Most Christians accept evolution, but they believe God's hand guided evolution. Fine, but then why add God to fill a gap that has already been filled by biology?

An enlightened Christian might accept that the Bible evolved in a way that looks suspiciously human, but they believe that God's hand inspired all these iterative changes. Then, in 500 AD or so, they freeze the Bible - no more changes - it's perfect now. Of course Christian theology continued to evolve through additional writings and creative interpretations of the Bible. Many Christians believe the Bible is "inerrant" in spite of its messy history.

So It all happened gradually with lots of extinct theologies along the way - just like every other religion in the world. There is no evidence for divine inspiration IMO. I don't see how Christians can know the history and not reach that conclusion.

Are you by any chance looking for facts or are you looking for meaning and purpose?

The facts, if there are any, serve as only anecdotal back story to the plot.

I believe the Bible is inerrant.

The Bible is part of the language of expression of the subject that all other religions are part of. They are all evidence vouched for. How are you dismissing them? On what grounds?

(December 31, 2014 at 9:53 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How are you dismissing them? On what grounds?

I imagine on the logical grounds that the fictional book was written by fallible men and that there is zero evidence to support that those men were even remotely divinely inspired by a deity.

(December 31, 2014 at 2:29 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Sometimes I see a post by a Christian who seems to know all the information and arguments that led me to atheism, but that person identifies as a Christian. I'm curious about how these people make that work, but if I try to ask questions, I usually get accused of breaking the forum's rules (maybe even blasphemy )

Is anybody aware of a forum with lots of rational Christians where the rules are reasonable? (Atheist forums usually have reasonable rules, but the few Christians who inhabit them are weird - sorry I don't know a nicer way to describe them. )

---

(December 31, 2014 at 11:23 pm)Sillysheep Wrote:

(December 31, 2014 at 2:29 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Sometimes I see a post by a Christian who seems to know all the information and arguments that led me to atheism, but that person identifies as a Christian. I'm curious about how these people make that work, but if I try to ask questions, I usually get accused of breaking the forum's rules (maybe even blasphemy )

Is anybody aware of a forum with lots of rational Christians where the rules are reasonable? (Atheist forums usually have reasonable rules, but the few Christians who inhabit them are weird - sorry I don't know a nicer way to describe them. )

I sympathize with you. Unfortunately the churches are full of Christians that don't know who Christ is. I did not know, for 49 years! I was an embarrassment to Jesus, and I was embarrassed to tell anybody that I believed in Him. Then something Changed. He came into my life and swept me off of my feet. He was not at all like the dead Jesus, so many Christians talk about. He was passion , and love. I was shocked. I began writing a book about Him, and He became a part of my life. Now I am blogging about Him. I am so in love with Him. If you have time, you are welcome to visit my blog, and post a comment if you like.
<snip>
I love you guys, and so does Jesus.

There was a forum member on here who made a valiant stab at a reasonable defence of Christianity, Arcanus I think.
He was obviously a fearsomely intelligent man who used his brains to justify his beliefs to himself.
Even he was less than convincing, but no one since has come closer to a proper justification for their delusions.

(January 1, 2015 at 11:54 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: There was a forum member on here who made a valiant stab at a reasonable defence of Christianity, Arcanus I think.
He was obviously a fearsomely intelligent man who used his brains to justify his beliefs to himself.
Even he was less than convincing, but no one since has come closer to a proper justification for their delusions.

As silly as it may sound it is only through the heart that it is possible to find God. A great atheist CS Lewis, looked into his heart, and saw something that he could not deny. He became one of the greatest christian authors, and everyone knows him from the books about Narnia

(January 1, 2015 at 12:34 pm)Sillysheep Wrote: As silly as it may sound it is only through the heart that it is possible to find God. A great atheist CS Lewis, looked into his heart, and saw something that he could not deny. He became one of the greatest christian authors, and everyone knows him from the books about Narnia

Are you being literal or metaphorical?
Heart is a muscular positive displacement pump.
Narnia: children's book by a human author about an imaginary land. Fitting.

(January 1, 2015 at 12:40 pm)JuliaL Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 12:34 pm)Sillysheep Wrote: As silly as it may sound it is only through the heart that it is possible to find God. A great atheist CS Lewis, looked into his heart, and saw something that he could not deny. He became one of the greatest christian authors, and everyone knows him from the books about Narnia

Are you being literal or metaphorical?
Heart is a muscular positive displacement pump.
Narnia: children's book by a human author about an imaginary land. Fitting.

I know that we usually refer to God as He. But I believe that God really is much more than that. If He was only a He, How could God's Holy Spirit whisper love into my heart, at the same time that The Spirit whispers love into your heart. I am afraid that religion and churches through history have done a great job of hiding God. We have been told that we are sinful and ugly, and unworthy. How, if that was true, would God send His son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. He did it because He loves us so much more than any human is capable of. His love is not present in a lot of Christians I am afraid. Christians need Him just as much as anyone else. A "christian" without Christ is not a happy person.
I was shocked by His love, when He whispered in my heart one stormy night. I felt things that I first tried to stop. I misunderstood when it says that God is Holy. I thought that it was sitting pretty in church, with a tie and shoes. Suddenly I realized what a miracle God did when he created me, and loved me so indescribably. It was an amazing experience when I felt God's spirit whisper to me, so that I even felt it physically.

---

Are you being literal or metaphorical?
Heart is a muscular positive displacement pump.
Narnia: children's book by a human author about an imaginary land. Fitting.
[/quote]


Funny. I enjoyed and deserved that one. When I say heart I don't mean our physical heart, but who we truly are deep inside. We are not a body controlled by a brain. What we really are is invisible. It is our soul

(January 1, 2015 at 12:34 pm)Sillysheep Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 11:54 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: There was a forum member on here who made a valiant stab at a reasonable defence of Christianity, Arcanus I think.
He was obviously a fearsomely intelligent man who used his brains to justify his beliefs to himself.
Even he was less than convincing, but no one since has come closer to a proper justification for their delusions.

As silly as it may sound it is only through the heart that it is possible to find God. A great atheist CS Lewis, looked into his heart, and saw something that he could not deny. He became one of the greatest christian authors, and everyone knows him from the books about Narnia

Your heart is a synonym for your emotions. I point that obvious fact out because sometimes Christians make it sound like their reaction to Jesus occurred somewhere other then their minds.

I have a theory as to why people are religious. Our minds are programmed to seek out patterns and that is why we sometimes see faces or animals in clouds. Maybe it is an instinct in some people to look for patterns in the random events of life and try to see the picture or reason behind everything.

Also, if someone is clinging to religion there is probably an emotional need or vulnerability that religion eases for that person. For example, someone from an abusive home might become an functioning, intelligent, nonabusive adult but still have a need to believe that some parent figure loves them. It doesn't matter how intelligent the person, we are all vulnerable and weak at some point in our lives. Some of people deal with those low points in their lives by seeking out religion.

(January 1, 2015 at 1:01 pm)Sillysheep Wrote: How, if that was true, would God send His son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

Congratulations for bringing yet another version of christianity. Everyone seems to have their own rubber Jesus these days. To bend and shape, just how they like him.

Btw, Jesus dying is only valid, if there is no trinity. Otherwise Jesus is just a brainfart of god compartmentalizing itself into one of three aspects. So Jesus is god, god sacrifices Jesus's body, which he doesn't need in the first place, since he's god, to himself. And then, since god can't die anyway, pulls the resurrection trick like a cheap circus artist.

That's no sacrifice, since there was nothing to be lost in the first place. It's just a splatter show for the clapping and credulous audience.

Christianity it doesn't make logical sense and the stories and anything and anyone who puts it out there is going to get logical criticism.
First off history proves that jesus never existed the places and such in the bible most were made up. Jesus being born on December 25
wrong pagan holiday. Virgin birth no wrong you need to have sex to have a child. God who is god how does he exist if he himself is a complex
being so god cannot create himself so he is not alpha and omega. If god did exist without being created what is stopping him from leaving us and creating
a whole new universe to pretty much torment.