but the best crap we have I guess.

My analogy is this... party A will reduce income tax from 20% to 1%, and they will sanction the ivory harvest, and the shark fin harvest to pay for it.

What say you?
(I accept the maths (ok math for you lot) doesn't add up, but judge it emotively)

And why don't referendum parties exist or work too well?

---

forgot to say, Party B will protect endangered species, and will increase income tax to 73%.
And Party C will give every parent 200,000 dollar/pounds, but will kill your first born!

and again, why aren't referenda popular?

I don't think there are enough sharks and/or elephants to fund party A.
Party B sounds a bit like the green party.
Party C has larger funding problems than party A.

I'd move abroad if faced with the above.

Referenda aren't popular because the majority of people are idiots and will vote based on the meme their equally stupid friend shared on facebook, rather than any actual knowledge of the possible outcomes of said referendum.

(January 2, 2015 at 8:08 pm)FreeTony Wrote: I don't think there are enough sharks and/or elephants to fund party A.
Party B sounds a bit like the green party.
Party C has larger funding problems than party A.

Referenda aren't popular because the majority of people are idiots and will vote based on the meme their equally stupid friend shared on facebook, rather than any actual knowledge of the possible outcomes of said referendum.

Well you misread my post... it's not about the number of elephants, it's about how a party garner emotions.

and you say referenda attract idiots? well so do elections, they're the same idiots. But they vote based on one issue but the party have several other bad agenda.

At least referendums focus on one question

In a general sense, I'm not particularly concerned about my taxes being kept artificially low, no matter what loopy scheme is dreamed up to pay for it. I reap the benefits of the society in which I live, it makes sense to pay my bit. I don't especially mind high taxes (not that mine are, particularly), as long as the societal benefits are commensurate with the tax rate. This is something that NZ seems to do pretty well.

Boru

(January 2, 2015 at 8:11 pm)lifesagift Wrote: and you say referenda attract idiots? well so do elections, they're the same idiots. But they vote based on one issue but the party have several other bad agenda.

At least referendums focus on one question

No, I'm saying that it's pointless getting people to vote on issues where they have zero understanding of said issue.

Take, for example, the EU referendum that could take place in Britain in 2017. The person who was spent hours researching the issue and formed an opinion based on this has equal say to the person who is voting based on what they read in the Daily Mail. Even the person who doesn't know what the EU is gets an equal say, as does the person that thinks the EU is run by evil giant lizards.

The recent Scottish referendum is another example. I know of people who did vote based on internet memes and conspiracy theories.

This doesn't mean that having no say is a good thing either. What we really need is a society that is pro intellectual and pro science, so that decisions can be made by the people best suited to making them. Even harder is that you must make sure these people are acting in the best interests of society, and not themselves. All very tricky.

(January 2, 2015 at 7:49 pm)lifesagift Wrote: but the best crap we have I guess.

My analogy is this... party A will reduce income tax from 20% to 1%, and they will sanction the ivory harvest, and the shark fin harvest to pay for it.

What say you?
(I accept the maths (ok math for you lot) doesn't add up, but judge it emotively)

And why don't referendum parties exist or work too well?

---

forgot to say, Party B will protect endangered species, and will increase income tax to 73%.
And Party C will give every parent 200,000 dollar/pounds, but will kill your first born!

and again, why aren't referenda popular?

If you are American you do not live in a democracy you live in an oligarchy. A society run for the benefit of a small elite.
You may have some of the trappings of democracy but it is an illusion to blind you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ludes.html

I read a book called "Blink" on how often intuitive decisions are the right one, which might suggest that there is more hope for democracy than one might thing. For the most part though, I agree with the idea that democracy is a pretty poor choice. Democracy works with an informed, considerate citizenry, not a description I would use for my fellow Americans. Clearly though, I am a small manority, and so spend as much time as I can living outside of the country.

I heard that democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all the other ones.

(January 3, 2015 at 10:55 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: If you are American you do not live in a democracy you live in an oligarchy. A society run for the benefit of a small elite.
You may have some of the trappings of democracy but it is an illusion to blind you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ludes.html

That's why I don't vote. I'm not going to preserve the illusion that I have any say. If society is going to be run by the person with the biggest stick, I will act accordingly.

(January 3, 2015 at 11:12 am)Natachan Wrote:

(January 3, 2015 at 10:55 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: If you are American you do not live in a democracy you live in an oligarchy. A society run for the benefit of a small elite.
You may have some of the trappings of democracy but it is an illusion to blind you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ludes.html

That's why I don't vote. I'm not going to preserve the illusion that I have any say. If society is going to be run by the person with the biggest stick, I will act accordingly.

Quote:“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"But that's terrible," said Arthur.
"Listen, bud," said Ford, "if I had one Altairian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say 'That's terrible' I wouldn't be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.”
― Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish


tags: arthur-dent, democracy, ford-prefect, h2g2, hitchhikers-guide-to-the-galaxy, humor