This is something I've been wibbling about recently so I thought it's time for another challenge, following the amazing success of the worship one. Here's my challenge to theists.

To my understanding, there are two factors of any claim which decide whether or not the claim is of any use at all. If it fails on any of these, it's pointless and not even worth addressing with argument or evidence. Here we go:

1) Coherent/consistent: The claim has to make sense. You have to define what you are talking about, in clear terms. It must be consistent with itself, and with the things we know about reality. If it's not coherent, there's nothing to test, I don't know what you are even claiming. If it's not consistent with itself, it's impossible. If it's not consistent with reality, it's also impossible, because we would have to throw out everything we think we know already just to consider this new claim. The reason for throwing out any conventional theory would have to be included to make this consistent.

2) Testable: The claim must be able to be investigated, in some way. If you are saying your claim is true, then you are saying you have reached that conclusion via some sort of method. So there must be some clear way in which the claim can be tested to find out whether it is true or not. If there is no way to test it, then that means the claim is either only true "for you" which makes it meaningless to anyone else, or it's just an assertion not backed by anything as you've refused to say how you even got to it in the first place. If there is no way to test your claim, no one can determine whether it is right or wrong. And if this is the case, no one can prove whether the opposite claim is right or wrong, either. So you are just arbitrarily choosing one of two positions, with no rational reason.

So my challenge is, can anyone come up with a non-trivial claim about God that meets these criteria? I have yet to see a single one. Only at that point does it make sense to even consider the evidence being presented, and to find out whether the claim is true, or most likely true.

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Also, if you want to present a case that claims which don't meet these criteria are still of any value to people other than yourself, please do.

I can not think of a single one.

(January 8, 2015 at 10:54 am)Nope Wrote: I can not think of a single one.

I second that.

Hehe Ignosticism bitches. OK I'll give them a bit more time before I print the t-shirts.

Not all forms of knowledge are testable. There are no empirical tests for mathematical proofs or the validity of logical propositions. Likewise the subjects of metaphysics are a higher order of inquiry than those of the natural sciences that depend on their validity.

Most of the reasons that Christians give for believing in god involves their feelings. "I've had a person experience with Jesus and felt him in my heart" which means that the person's good mood must be caused by Jesus.

I am surprised that more theists haven't taken you up on this challange

Abstract notions like mathematics can be proved with logic.

Claims about reality require evidence. Metaphysics means nothing if you can't define or test it, it's indistinguishable from nothing.

If you claim you have knowledge, then you must have tested it. Otherwise you have made it up.

(January 8, 2015 at 10:32 am)robvalue Wrote: This is something I've been wibbling about recently so I thought it's time for another challenge, following the amazing success of the worship one. Here's my challenge to theists.

To my understanding, there are two factors of any claim which decide whether or not the claim is of any use at all. If it fails on any of these, it's pointless and not even worth addressing with argument or evidence. Here we go:

1) Coherent/consistent: The claim has to make sense. You have to define what you are talking about, in clear terms. It must be consistent with itself, and with the things we know about reality. If it's not coherent, there's nothing to test, I don't know what you are even claiming. If it's not consistent with itself, it's impossible. If it's not consistent with reality, it's also impossible, because we would have to throw out everything we think we know already just to consider this new claim. The reason for throwing out any conventional theory would have to be included to make this consistent.

2) Testable: The claim must be able to be investigated, in some way. If you are saying your claim is true, then you are saying you have reached that conclusion via some sort of method. So there must be some clear way in which the claim can be tested to find out whether it is true or not. If there is no way to test it, then that means the claim is either only true "for you" which makes it meaningless to anyone else, or it's just an assertion not backed by anything as you've refused to say how you even got to it in the first place. If there is no way to test your claim, no one can determine whether it is right or wrong. And if this is the case, no one can prove whether the opposite claim is right or wrong, either. So you are just arbitrarily choosing one of two positions, with no rational reason.

So my challenge is, can anyone come up with a non-trivial claim about God that meets these criteria? I have yet to see a single one. Only at that point does it make sense to even consider the evidence being presented, and to find out whether the claim is true, or most likely true.

---

Also, if you want to present a case that claims which don't meet these criteria are still of any value to people other than yourself, please do.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

God's not going to prove anything to you, it's the other way around, you have to prove something to him.

(January 8, 2015 at 11:08 am)Nope Wrote: Most of the reasons that Christians give for believing in god involves their feelings. "I've had a person experience with Jesus and felt him in my heart" which means that the person's good mood must be caused by Jesus.

I am surprised that more theists haven't taken you up on this challange

Where is GC when we need him.

So far theists' answer to Robo's question is no.