God can make infinitely more special/valuable things than this universe

[blue grey brain]

1. If God is supposedly all powerful, with the ability to create supposedly infinitely far more special things than universes (all while being enormously effortless for God to supposedly do), why do Christians feel themselves or the universe to be so special?

2. Why do Christians feel they or the universe is so special, despite that God would have supposedly easily created infinitely more valuable, infinitely more special things than this universe, within his supposed omnipotency?

3. Note: This universe is by far, theistically describable as not the best God could create, and in theistic theory, God would have in his supposed omnipotency, created far better, far more valuable things.

4. Or is the famed theistic supposedly omnipotent God, ironically limited to creations of merely the level of the specialness or value of this universe?


In simpler words, if we go by the definition of omnipotence, this would indicate that this universe's creation is not the end of God's supposedly unending power.

[Belacqua]

This universe is by far, theistically describable as not the best God could create,

Maybe we should clarify some things first -- I'm not sure what you're saying here.

When you say that our universe is "not the best God could create," what standards are you using to say that it could have been better? What is better and worse, when we pass judgment on universes? 

I can certainly agree that it could have been better for me. I mean, I'm having stomach problems these days. But that would risk exaggerating my importance in the scheme of things. 

and in theistic theory, God would have in his supposed omnipotency, created far better, far more valuable things.

Which "theistic theory" are you thinking of here? There are a lot of them. Some of them attempt explanations as to why a certain amount of human suffering is actually better, universe-wise. 

And value...? Most atheists think that value is assigned by humans. It's not an intrinsic aspect of the universe. So how do we say with confidence that from God's point of view the universe could have had more value? Maybe more value for me, sure, but I'm not God.

[ignoramus]

BGB, simple. Because for those theists who've swallowed the prepackaged/for mass consumption version of what "god" is, then it is because it says so right there in the bible.

Do not question the bible or its legitimacy. It was never meant to be criticized! Otherwise we may as well just watch the emporer and his clothes cartoons instead.

[tackattack]

1. I don't think I'm special, but let's go with that for this point.God could create infinitely "better" or "worse" universes with infinitely better or worse inhabitants. I know he things we're better than 2 sparrows, but sure let's say we're created in His image so that makes us special

2. Well, he could have done all of 1, but still made us, so 2 is proven by 1.

You lost me on 3 and 4. Simple, I like simple
By your definition of omnipotence, this would indicate that this universe's creation is not the end of God's supposedly unending power. Sure, maybe there's a universe with a God hotline phone on every planet and different species on every planet.

The problem is the universe is the sum of everything we mere mortals know. I don't know if there is a better universe than this, but there could be. What would still make us special is that we re created in His image and believers particularly were given the Holy Spirit

Does that answer your question. I have a question though... who comes to an atheist forum looking for Christians to argue with? Welcome though. I hope I fell into your steel logic trap as you wanted.

[Minimalist]

4. Or is the famed theistic supposedly omnipotent God, ironically limited to creations of merely the level of the specialness or value of this universe?

He seems to be limited to the level of understanding of the ancient primitives who invented him.  I think there is a cause/effect there.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Theists have low standards. Their god can produce miracles, but only miracles that aren't too complex. "Parting an ocean at low tide"? No sweat. "Creating humans who aren't innately dicks"? Much harder, no can do.

[Brian37]

1. I don't think I'm special, but let's go with that for this point.God could create infinitely "better" or "worse" universes with infinitely better or worse inhabitants. I know he things we're better than 2 sparrows, but sure let's say we're created in His image so that makes us special

2. Well, he could have done all of 1, but still made us, so 2 is proven by 1.

You lost me on 3 and 4. Simple, I like simple
By your definition of omnipotence, this would indicate that this universe's creation is not the end of God's supposedly unending power. Sure, maybe there's a universe with a God hotline phone on every planet and different species on every planet.

The problem is the universe is the sum of everything we mere mortals know. I don't know if there is a better universe than this, but there could be. What would still make us special is that we re created in His image and believers particularly were given the Holy Spirit

Does that answer your question. I have a question though... who comes to an atheist forum looking for Christians to argue with? Welcome though. I hope I fell into your steel logic trap as you wanted.

Your superstitious view of a top down super cognition is the problem.

You never want to consider that there is no super cognition, and that is simply merely a reflection of human's qualities in fictional form.

The universe is 13.8 billion years old. It makes no sense to claim an all powerful perfect being to wait 99.8 percent of that history to finally put our species on one tiny rock, only 200,000 years ago, on a hostile planet, in an age of ignorance, and only get around to human writing a mere 10,000 years go. And still to this day people fighting over what his name is, and which holy writing is correct. 

Cockroaches and bacteria outnumber humans and have existed far longer than humans. The water bear has survived all 5 mass extinction events. Humans can choke and die on while eating because we share the same eating breathing tube, whereas dolphins and whales don't have that problem.

The average amount of deaths worldwide is 50 to 60 MILLION per year, from everything you can think of at every age. Stillborn, childhood famine, disease, accidental, natural disaster, man made disaster, crime and war and old age. That is half a billion deaths in 10 years and 1 billion deaths on average every 20 years.  That does not indicate to me a cosmic security guard is magically helping humans.

[Belacqua]

Your superstitious view of a top down super cognition is the problem.

You never want to consider that there is no super cognition, and that is simply merely a reflection of human's qualities in fictional form.

The universe is 13.8 billion years old. It makes no sense to claim an all powerful perfect being to wait 99.8 percent of that history to finally put our species on one tiny rock, only 200,000 years ago, on a hostile planet, in an age of ignorance, and only get around to human writing a mere 10,000 years go. And still to this day people fighting over what his name is, and which holy writing is correct. 

Cockroaches and bacteria outnumber humans and have existed far longer than humans. The water bear has survived all 5 mass extinction events. Humans can choke and die on while eating because we share the same eating breathing tube, whereas dolphins and whales don't have that problem.

The average amount of deaths worldwide is 50 to 60 MILLION per year, from everything you can think of at every age. Stillborn, childhood famine, disease, accidental, natural disaster, man made disaster, crime and war and old age. That is half a billion deaths in 10 years and 1 billion deaths on average every 20 years.  That does not indicate to me a cosmic security guard is magically helping humans.

As so often happens, the approach you're taking here doesn't seem to take in all the possibilities. 

You're thinking about what you would do if you were omnipotent, and then, because those things don't happen, judging that there must not be a God. That is, if you were omnipotent you wouldn't let bad things happen to good people, and you would have created the universe in what you perceive to be a more efficient manner, not wasting all that time before people got here. 

This shows a lot of confidence in your own opinion about how good universes are run. Forgive me for suggesting it, but you may be some way from omniscient, and there may be aspects of the universe and the way in which things happen that neither you nor I are good at thinking about. Humans are finite and there's a lot we don't know. 

This doesn't mean there is a God. But it does mean that your argument really boils down to saying you would do things differently if you had your own universe.

[Brian37]

Your superstitious view of a top down super cognition is the problem.

You never want to consider that there is no super cognition, and that is simply merely a reflection of human's qualities in fictional form.

The universe is 13.8 billion years old. It makes no sense to claim an all powerful perfect being to wait 99.8 percent of that history to finally put our species on one tiny rock, only 200,000 years ago, on a hostile planet, in an age of ignorance, and only get around to human writing a mere 10,000 years go. And still to this day people fighting over what his name is, and which holy writing is correct. 

Cockroaches and bacteria outnumber humans and have existed far longer than humans. The water bear has survived all 5 mass extinction events. Humans can choke and die on while eating because we share the same eating breathing tube, whereas dolphins and whales don't have that problem.

The average amount of deaths worldwide is 50 to 60 MILLION per year, from everything you can think of at every age. Stillborn, childhood famine, disease, accidental, natural disaster, man made disaster, crime and war and old age. That is half a billion deaths in 10 years and 1 billion deaths on average every 20 years.  That does not indicate to me a cosmic security guard is magically helping humans.

As so often happens, the approach you're taking here doesn't seem to take in all the possibilities. 

You're thinking about what you would do if you were omnipotent, and then, because those things don't happen, judging that there must not be a God. That is, if you were omnipotent you wouldn't let bad things happen to good people, and you would have created the universe in what you perceive to be a more efficient manner, not wasting all that time before people got here. 

This shows a lot of confidence in your own opinion about how good universes are run. Forgive me for suggesting it, but you may be some way from omniscient, and there may be aspects of the universe and the way in which things happen that neither you nor I are good at thinking about. Humans are finite and there's a lot we don't know. 

This doesn't mean there is a God. But it does mean that your argument really boils down to saying you would do things differently if you had your own universe.

No, it isn't just what I would do if I were an all powerful God. That only addresses the bad logic of the claim of the alleged morality of the claimed being.

In real life, any sane parent, would protect their children every time possible when they can. It does address the selective nature of the claimed being. Yea, I wouldn't do it like this alleged being. 

No, I only point that out to demonstrate the bad logic. Good and bad happen in life and there is no super natural reason for either. But if one is to claim there is a super natural reason for good and bad happening to us, the logic is not there.

Of course I wouldn't be a selective deadbeat. There should be no excuse to treat humans like props, lab rats, property or toys. 

But if you take the superstition out of it, and look at both the good and bad that happen in life as as natural it can free humans up to reduce the impact of the bad that happens in reality, instead of chalking it up to a fictional being.

Tornados are natural, hurricanes are natural, and unfortunately so is crime and war. It isn't that you want those bad things affecting you, it is merely an acceptance that they happen. It is still up to humans as to how we reduce the negative impacts on our lives.

The thought of my existence of being a mere poker chip, pawn for the glorification of a super cognition is a horrifying prospect if it were true. I will place my bets on the more infinitely likely probability that humans are merely projecting their own qualities in fictional form.

"All the possibllitiies".......<----- Ok, which seems more likely? 

1. A super cognition named Allah, or Jesus, or Yahweh, or Apollo, or Brahma did all this?

Or.

2. Humans project their qualities in fictional form, and mostly buy what their parents sell them prior to formulating adult critical thinking skills?

[purplepurpose]

Does Harry Potter has unlimited supply of mana? Can he teleport to the moon if enough magical preparation is done?