(January 18, 2015 at 12:32 pm)Davka Wrote: Not always ignorant.

Despite the aversion you may have to using that word, that is precisely what they are. Ignorant. An individual who prefers the lie of fantastical fiction does not strike me as an individual knowledgeable about reality.

(January 18, 2015 at 12:41 pm)Sionnach Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 12:32 pm)Davka Wrote: Not always ignorant.

Despite the aversion you may have to using that word, that is precisely what they are. Ignorant. An individual who prefers the lie of fantastical fiction does not strike me as an individual knowledgeable about reality.

That's not ignorance, it's delusion or psychosis.

Was John Nash ignorant? I suppose you could argue that schizophrenics are ignorant before they learn that they have schizophrenia, but we're getting into the whole "everyone is ignorant of something" territory now. Which is true, but it's not what most people think when they hear the word.

(January 18, 2015 at 12:59 pm)Davka Wrote: That's not ignorance, it's delusion or psychosis.

Was John Nash ignorant?

Schizophrenia is something completely different.
Theists tend to be willfully ignorant, preferring the delusion of faith over reality. They are not theistic because of a commonly recognized mental illness.

(January 18, 2015 at 11:39 am)Davka Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 11:34 am)Drich Wrote: There are many who contracted this virus and have since been healed. In the early to mid 90's this was attributed to a bad hiv test. Now they have better tests and yet people who have been confirmed with HiV are being healed. these people are refered to as controllers and super controllers. http://www.hivcontrollers.org/hivcontrollers/

That's not healing, it's management. Healing would mean that the HIV virus was no longer present in your system, period.

Since the set of people who are HIV controllers is not limited to "those who asked god for healing," your assumption that god had anything to do with your physical state with regard to HIV is fatally flawed. If one person prays to a milk carton and another prays to Jesus and both of their prayers come to pass, is the milk carton answering prayer?

Whether I had a false positive or I am an HIV super controller I do not have the HIV virus. I do have a blood disorder that the doctors at UF cancer treatment have not been able to identify as of yet. They said it may have something to do with me testing positive 20+ years ago, but are not sure. I go in for a bone marrow biopsy tues. They orginally thought it was lukiema as I tested positive for cancer markers consistant with prostate cance, and lukiema. But I do not have some protein or some other cancer indicator that would mean a solid diagnosis. Either way I do not have HIV in my system.

(January 17, 2015 at 5:03 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

(January 16, 2015 at 11:14 pm)Drich Wrote: I'm saying God durning the 7 days of creation made man/Adam (man made in his image.) placed him in the garden just like the bible says.

'Monkey man' evolved outside the garden just like you believe.

God's will: to live in unity with A&E

God's plan of attack: (1) create a garden for A&E to live *AND* (2) create the conditions for abiogenesis to happen so that eventually, through evolution, there are "monkeymen" *precisely* when they're biologically compatible with A&E by the time they're thrown out of the garden.

Now, if God's will is as stated above, why the need to create (2)? The creation of "monkeyman" means God knew A&E would need an evacuation plan so that humanity could live on. If God knew this, then it means God knew he couldn't achieve *his own will* from the get go.

God is incompetent. But what else is new?

Bump.

If the philosophy is sound, then I think the above shows that your theory doesn't output what you want it to output Drich.

(January 18, 2015 at 11:39 am)Tonus Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 2:27 am)Drich Wrote: i wasn't aware of a second one.

The first creation account is Genesis 1:1-2:3. The second account is Genesis 2:4-2:25. The focus of attention, the order of creation, and god's method of creating are among the things that differentiate the two, such that it's pretty easy to see that someone took two separate creation stories and put them end-to-end.

As for the soul, depending on the translation the Bible tells us that people and animals are souls, not that they have them. If I am not mistaken, it's not until Revelations that there is any indication that humans would take up spirit bodies and go to heaven, so the concept of a soul separate from the body is not clearly defined until then. And with Revelations being the description of a dream sequence, it's possible that this was an allegorical account. The concept of a soul separate from the body relies on specific translations of the Bible, otherwise it's very difficult to substantiate it without considerable cherry picking.

Actuall look up how ancient jews relayed a story. In their traditional story telling they give an overview first then come back and fill in the detail.

http://faculty.smu.edu/rheller/HB7301/HBGramStories.doc

(January 18, 2015 at 1:34 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 11:39 am)Davka Wrote: That's not healing, it's management. Healing would mean that the HIV virus was no longer present in your system, period.

Since the set of people who are HIV controllers is not limited to "those who asked god for healing," your assumption that god had anything to do with your physical state with regard to HIV is fatally flawed. If one person prays to a milk carton and another prays to Jesus and both of their prayers come to pass, is the milk carton answering prayer?

Whether I had a false positive or I am an HIV super controller I do not have the HIV virus. I do have a blood disorder that the doctors at UF cancer treatment have not been able to identify as of yet. They said it may have something to do with me testing positive 20+ years ago, but are not sure. I go in for a bone marrow biopsy tues. They orginally thought it was lukiema as I tested positive for cancer markers consistant with prostate cance, and lukiema. But I do not have some protein or some other cancer indicator that would mean a solid diagnosis. Either way I do not have HIV in my system.

So you had a false positive HIV test then.

They are not uncommon and have many causes.

http://virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/cjtestfp.htm

(January 18, 2015 at 11:53 am)Nope Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 11:39 am)Davka Wrote: That's not healing, it's management. Healing would mean that the HIV virus was no longer present in your system, period.

Since the set of people who are HIV controllers is not limited to "those who asked god for healing," your assumption that god had anything to do with your physical state with regard to HIV is fatally flawed. If one person prays to a milk carton and another prays to Jesus and both of their prayers come to pass, is the milk carton answering prayer?

Hopefully, if Drich has HIV, he and his wife use protection.

My ams look like that of a IV drug user because I had over 30 blood tests this year, I'm clean.

(January 18, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 11:39 am)Tonus Wrote: The first creation account is Genesis 1:1-2:3. The second account is Genesis 2:4-2:25. The focus of attention, the order of creation, and god's method of creating are among the things that differentiate the two, such that it's pretty easy to see that someone took two separate creation stories and put them end-to-end.

As for the soul, depending on the translation the Bible tells us that people and animals are souls, not that they have them. If I am not mistaken, it's not until Revelations that there is any indication that humans would take up spirit bodies and go to heaven, so the concept of a soul separate from the body is not clearly defined until then. And with Revelations being the description of a dream sequence, it's possible that this was an allegorical account. The concept of a soul separate from the body relies on specific translations of the Bible, otherwise it's very difficult to substantiate it without considerable cherry picking.

Actuall look up how ancient jews relayed a story. In their traditional story telling they give an overview first then come back and fill in the detail.

http://faculty.smu.edu/rheller/HB7301/HBGramStories.doc

Except the so-called "detail" here is giving a different timeline - one that is inconsistent with the first layer of story telling.

(January 18, 2015 at 1:33 pm)Sionnach Wrote:

(January 18, 2015 at 12:59 pm)Davka Wrote: That's not ignorance, it's delusion or psychosis.

Was John Nash ignorant?

Schizophrenia is something completely different.
Theists tend to be willfully ignorant, preferring the delusion of faith over reality. They are not theistic because of a commonly recognized mental illness.

I was a born-again evangelical Christian for 18 years, from age 27 to age 45.. Looking back, I believe that I had a psychotic break, triggered by too much LSD over too many years. However, my 'conversion testimony' was not significantly different from others I heard during that time.

I suspect that a lot of 'born-again' experiences are similarly triggered by a mental breakdown of some sort. It is extremely common to hear people say that they had hit rock bottom, were at the end of their rope, were up against the wall when they had their "come to Jesus" moment. Our brains can and do play some pretty weird shit on us when our lives are threatened.

Of course, after the initial breakdown, joining a church will surround you with people who reinforce your delusion. Everything about church structure is designed to keep the break from reality internally consistent, so as to prolong it.

Frankly, I think religion evolved as an answer to existential fear. Facing one's own inevitable demise is not easy, and would have been harder for those distant ancestors who first saw a pile of bones and thought "that will be me some day." How do primitive societies fend off deep depression brought on by existential fear? Tell stories about life-after-death!

/ crackpot hypothesis