(August 6, 2010 at 4:06 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: No.

In fact, I have a hard time understanding why so many people seem to think there should be some sort of 'meaning' behind Life, The Universe, and Everything. ®

If life has a purpose, it is to be lived.

Everything has a purpose, in my opinion, even an orange seed. Have you ever walked through an orange grove (or apple, or vineyard, what have you) and marvled at all the seeds that will never become orange trees. In fact, in terms of a percentage, I'll bet it's a billion to one or even more. Yet every orange seed has within it the purpose of becoming a full fledged orange tree.

In this day and age, I feel sorry for young people. Coming of age in the 80's and 90's was easier because the world was expanding. You could be anything you wanted to be and there was probably a job waiting for you. Now there is less. Now we are surviving. Now we have no hope, or so it seems, of ever becoming an orange tree, metaphorically speaking.

What's good about atheism, is that you can be a seed and never worry about whether you become an orange tree--because what difference? Matter is matter. Right?

Chaos + natural selection = no purpose at all. One thing is not better than another. The human race doesn't matter any more than any particular species of grass you can name. We only live to survive.

(August 6, 2010 at 3:55 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: Then I realized a startling fact: if there is no God who created me, then I have no purpose. No inherent purpose, no mission in life. If everything is chaos and natural selection, then I'm just a determined entity. I don’t have to worry about “purpose.” There is no purpose. I am free from my existential dilemma. Free at last.

Presumably then you do feel that you have a purpose. A purpose pre-destined by this God character. If so then I have to ask what that purpose is and to what end?

Also, chaos and natural selection barely have a nodding acquaintance so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Evolution works on the random mutation of genes that give its host some sort of advantage in the 'struggle for life'. This is not chaos. Perhaps you are alluding to the principle of cause and effect and that all future actions or events are already pre-determined by their past and so we can have no free will and any such sense is purely illusionary.

And why do you feel that you need a purpose or that a purpose is anything more than a human construct?

This I think is the fundamental difference between you and I. You look at the Cosmos and say "why", whereas I look at the Cosmos and say "how"! Correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, this isn't the reason why atheists are atheists as if you actually believe in a god then simply because you want to be free of purpose or to construct your own doesn't change the fact that you believe.

I don't need your god (or anyone else's version of god) to make it through the day. I'm 60; that's a lot of days without worrying about bullshit.

I think I would replace the word 'purpose' (as you've used it) with the word 'potential'. Every seed has the potential to become a tree. What I dispute is that there is some underlying, mystical purpose to life... some grand destiny we are meant to fulfill. I think that each person is born and can only make the best of their life's circumstances. We can strive for happiness and to be a 'good person', but whether or not we achieve it makes no difference in the end, beyond how others remember us.

And yeah... things have changed for the worse in the last few decades, but hopefully they will improve. If not... we still simply strive to be as happy as we can... if happiness is what we desire. Again... it makes no difference in the end. We die... we rot... the end.

(August 6, 2010 at 5:03 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: What's good about atheism, is that you can be a seed and never worry about whether you become an orange tree--because what difference? Matter is matter. Right?

What's good about theism, is that you can be a seed and never worry about whether you become an orange tree--because why worry? Whatever happens is God's will and is good. Right?

(August 6, 2010 at 5:00 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Oh yes... we are well aware that we (atheists) are free from superstition and dogma. We are well aware that we are free to live our lives without fear. We are well aware that we are free to live our lives as we see fit and that personal happiness comes from within ourselves and from each other (people in general, not just atheists). We have the freedom you talked about and, yes, we are aware of it.

Does that answer your question?

A. Who is "we"? Do you speak for all atheists?

B. No one is free from superstition and dogma. Almost everything you believe you have never verified for yourself. And your use of "we" constitutes the construction of dogma; atheist dogma to be sure, but
dogma nonetheless.

C. Before I came back in to respond to my post, everyone was adamant that "NO" they never thought such thoughts, but now you come in and speak for everyone and say "YES" "WE" are aware of that freedom.

D. Living life as you see fit and following the personal happiness within yourself sounds like a sociopath. I'm sure you didn't intend to sound that way, but you do. It makes me think you're just spouting out, dare I say, dogmatic atheistic platitudes.

E. Really? You are free to live your life without fear? None at all? Well, all I can say is something doesn't smell right in the trash can. I have never known one human being in my life, or mammal for that matter, that wasn't afraid of something. Most of life is lived via fear. It moves us from one spot to another. Now, you probably didn't mean to sound that...well, I can't think of a polite word to use. But my point is, you sound that way because you are dogmatic. What you just spewed out is the definition of dogma. Atheist dogma, yes, but dogma nonetheless.

Your response?

(August 6, 2010 at 4:51 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: What are you talking about? Who said it was? Y'all may be right: life may have no purpose whatsoever. In fact, it's easier to live life if it has no purpose, because then you don't have to live up to a purpose. You just have to be. My point is, atheists, real atheists, don't have existential problems--as evidenced by some of the replies right here in this string.

"Real" atheists? Oh dear.

(August 6, 2010 at 4:51 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: All I asked is whether you noticed that freedom or not. It's almost more telling that everyone dogpiled in to register their "no" vote as quick as they could. Adrian up there posted "no," I think, before I actually published my post!

No.

(August 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: A. Who is "we"? Do you speak for all atheists?

Of course not, but I have never known an atheist that has stated otherwise, so I feel safe saying 'we' in that case. Doesn't mean I'm 100% correct, of course.

(August 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: B. No one is free from superstition and dogma. Almost everything you believe you have never verified for yourself. And your use of "we" constitutes the construction of dogma; atheist dogma to be sure, but
dogma nonetheless.

I am free from superstition and religious dogma... to clarify. You know what I mean, but you are trying to make this a battle of semantics.

(August 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: C. Before I came back in to respond to my post, everyone was adamant that "NO" they never thought such thoughts, but now you come in and speak for everyone and say "YES" "WE" are aware of that freedom.

No was to your first question, as to whether or not we have had the experience you described. The 'yes' was to the question of whether or not we are aware of our freedom. See above.

(August 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: D. Living life as you see fit and following the personal happiness within yourself sounds like a sociopath. I'm sure you didn't intend to sound that way, but you do. It makes me think you're just spouting out, dare I say, dogmatic atheistic platitudes.

Hyperbole much?

(August 6, 2010 at 5:14 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: E. Really? You are free to live your life without fear? None at all? Well, all I can say is something doesn't smell right in the trash can. I have never known one human being in my life, or mammal for that matter, that wasn't afraid of something. Most of life is lived via fear. It moves us from one spot to another. Now, you probably didn't mean to sound that...well, I can't think of a polite word to use. But my point is, you sound that way because you are dogmatic. What you just spewed out is the definition of dogma. Atheist dogma, yes, but dogma nonetheless.

Your response?

Now you are just being an asshole. No wonder you get banned from so many places. Are you a troll or just an angry theist? <- Rhetorical.

(August 6, 2010 at 4:51 pm)Edward the Theist Wrote: "Real" atheists? Oh dear.

See why I says bans him?
I believe he has a date with a big hammer.

Not worth it this one.

I'll say that there is nothing sociopathic about living like for the sake of happiness.

What's that? An unsubstantiated assertion you say?

Right back at you.

Quote:Living life as you see fit and following the personal happiness within yourself sounds like a sociopath.