Uh...any of it?

Right, by illusion I don't mean nothing at all is happening, I mean it's probably not at all how it appears. Like it's being looked at from such a strange angle you can't make out what the fuck it is.

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None of those are proven.

(February 2, 2015 at 9:21 am)robvalue Wrote: Well yes, that too I mainly meant the understanding of conciousness, whether it is a dualistic entity somewhere or just an illusion or whatever. As far as I know, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's, but what evidence there is (or isn't) seems to point towards conciousness being an illusion, to me at least. I'm far from an expert so feel free to fill my gaps

consciousness can't be an illusion... consciousness is required for experience, you cannot doubt experience because to doubt you need experience. get it? "i think therefore I am." the one truth that can't be disputed.

I can dispute it.

I may be "something" but I have no idea what. I may be nothing. It's a gross oversimplification to try and pigeon hole like this.

(February 2, 2015 at 9:29 am)Rational AKD Wrote:

(February 2, 2015 at 9:21 am)robvalue Wrote: Well yes, that too I mainly meant the understanding of conciousness, whether it is a dualistic entity somewhere or just an illusion or whatever. As far as I know, anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's, but what evidence there is (or isn't) seems to point towards conciousness being an illusion, to me at least. I'm far from an expert so feel free to fill my gaps

consciousness can't be an illusion... consciousness is required for experience, you cannot doubt experience because to doubt you need experience. get it? "i think therefore I am." the one truth that can't be disputed.

I think I agree for a change, in the sense that consciousness is defined as that which we experience and consequently call consciousness. It's not an illusion by definition.

(February 2, 2015 at 9:28 am)robvalue Wrote: Right, by illusion I don't mean nothing at all is happening, I mean it's probably not at all how it appears. Like it's being looked at from such a strange angle you can't make out what the fuck it is.

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None of those are proven.

excuse my slowness. it's hard to keep up with everyone at once.
what can't be an illusion with consciousness is the fact that it enables experience. as for what we observe, we observe a world that appears to be physical world. we can observe a similar world when we dream, but we know that's not the physical world so presume it's just mental. you can claim that mental world is illusionary but that seems to be going extraordinary length to protect materialism. so exactly which part of consciousness do you think could be illusionary?

How is "something that appears to be real but in reality isn't real" not an illusion?

(February 2, 2015 at 9:25 am)Rational AKD Wrote: exactly which one of those are merely asserted and not proven?

-all...of...them........I thought I was pretty clear.

Quote:1. you are conscious and you cannot doubt this because doubting requires consciousness.

Am "I"? Does "doubting"? What is "consciousness"? I know, I know, you've swallowed the cogito....unfortunately it's not a strictly rational statement - though many do find it to b compelling, of course.

Quote:this is Cartesian Skepticism as proven by René Descartes. this is not disputed among philosophers.

Unsurprising, since it's their business to think. Police don't doubt the existence of crime, firefighters don't doubt the existence of fire. While it is difficult to conceptualize some situation in which I think, but am not, or that there is no I, but there is thinking from a point of igorance of that process, even if one accepts the cogito that still leaves open the question "what am I" - which is the question that would need to be answered in the context of a conversaion between materialism and idealism. So it gets you - specifically- no purchase...regardless of whether or not one accepts it.

Quote:
2. it is possible for you to exist a world where everything is mental (like your dreams)it is not disputed that your dreams do not have material objects yet appear to be material. what's your objection with this?

Flat out assertion. I say your dreams are descriptions of the states of a physical machine. So yeah, that's disputed....by the very position you are arguing against. Stop asserting that the other side is wrong, pretending that the position does not exist, and make an argument to that effect, eh?

Quote:3. it is not possible for you to exist in a world without consciousness (as you are conscious).
you are a conscious being. it should be evident that you cannot exist in a would without consciousness.

All hinges on what you think consciousness is. I'm not the kind of guy that lets shit get smuggled into an argument. If you think that consciousness is, essentially, ghosts...then yeah - it's "possible" for me to live in a world where consciousness, as you...the arguer - perceive it - but yet doesn't exist.

Quote:4. therefore it is not necessary to postulate physical substances to explain our experience
follows from the premises. what exactly is not proven here?

That -is- precisely what is not proven. That those physical substances are not postulated...but observed (and you wouldn;t want to go doubting that experience...now would you?) probably should have tipped you off to the possibility that you went off the rails somewhere.

Consciousness, btw, may not "enable experience" at all - again, you keep asserting what can or cannot be doubted..asserting that no one can disagree with you in what you yourself have decided to call an "important discussion" - this is fucking ridiculous.....

(February 2, 2015 at 9:36 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: How is "something that appears to be real but in reality isn't real" not an illusion?

There simply is no sensible notion of consciousness being real or not real - what does that even mean? What would be the difference?

(February 2, 2015 at 9:40 am)Alex K Wrote:

(February 2, 2015 at 9:36 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: How is "something that appears to be real but in reality isn't real" not an illusion?

There simply is no sensible notion of consciousness being real - what does that even mean?

I was aiming at his "dream world" thing.