(February 2, 2015 at 4:20 pm)Nope Wrote: The title of the thread is the question I would like answered but with one slight caveat. Could theists not respond with anything about the afterlife? I want to know what theists get out of having faith right now. If I need to explain the question further, I will.

What I get out of religion is despair.

Yeah . . . Christianity makes me sad. Because once you become "not of this world" and less materialistic you begin to see everyone else from within. You begin to care about their problems. You see the evil around the world and despair.

But on the flip side, with faith I get a role model and also with faith I get the fruits of the holy spirit- love, joy, gentleness, goodness, kindness, peace, patience, self control and faithfulness. with faithfulness i can be confident of grace which I can deal with the problems of the world (which may range from family problems to world poverty)

'Grasshopper Wrote:Yeah . . . Christianity makes me sad. Because once you become "not of this world" and less materialistic you begin to see everyone else from within. You begin to care about their problems. You see the evil around the world and despair.

Didn't you care about the world before you were a Christian? After I lost faith, I felt I became more understanding towards others.

Do you think your definition of evil is different then a non Christians?

Quote:. with faithfulness i can be confident of grace which I can deal with the problems of the world (which may range from family problems to world poverty)

How do you deal with world poverty?

It is 3 in the morning here but I can't sleep. Hopefully my response makes sense. Also, thanks for answering and not dodging the question

(February 3, 2015 at 6:16 pm)Nope Wrote: What does 'contributing to the wonderful and expansive work of the Lord's love' mean?

Presumably, being part of something greater than yourself.

(February 3, 2015 at 1:18 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 3, 2015 at 12:54 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I'm sorry that you need to be told what your purpose in life.

I never said that meaning was preassigned. People can still find their own meaning and still be a part of something larger than they can even imagine.

That option is not available to ontological naturalists.

Thank you for your concern, though.

I wanted to 'kudo' this post for acknowledging that people can find their own meaning, but your exception for 'ontological naturalists' is puzzling. Would you elaborate, please?

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(February 4, 2015 at 4:13 am)Grasshopper Wrote: What I get out of religion is despair.

Yeah . . . Christianity makes me sad. Because once you become "not of this world" and less materialistic you begin to see everyone else from within. You begin to care about their problems. You see the evil around the world and despair.

I hate to pick on you when you're taking the trouble to try to provide a good answer to the question, but you didn't care about people's problems until you became a Christian? Why not?

(February 4, 2015 at 9:56 am)TheBootyworrior Wrote: But on the flip side, with faith I get a role model and also with faith I get the fruits of the holy spirit- love, joy, gentleness, goodness, kindness, peace, patience, self control and faithfulness. with faithfulness i can be confident of grace which I can deal with the problems of the world (which may range from family problems to world poverty)

Faith isn't a requirement to obtain those fruits, except that last one, which seems kind of redundant.

I'm glad you get a lot out of your faith, but it kind of sounds like what you really needed was a peer group concerned about ethics and humanity. A humanist group could provide that without you having to believe in supernatural people and events.

In response to Mister Agenda's question:

A while back I got hammered for equivocating atheism with ontological naturalist even though 99.9% of atheists tacitly accept it. For the study of nature, methodological naturalism right limits its inquiries to matter [material cause] and efficient cause. Formal and final causes are not considered. Ontological naturalists make the metaphysical claim that only material and efficient causes exist. Physical objects and events are not ‘about’ anything. They just are. For the ontological naturalist the apparent intentional behavior of some things, from thermostats to human beings, is an illusion. That means that any concept that hinges on intentionality, like meaning and purpose, is also just a phantasy. Thus, the ontological naturalist that says their life can have meaning is contradicting himself or herself.

I know why you did not want to hear about heaven, you believe it's a given to all Christians, it's actually more than a given to us, it's new and perfect life with Christ. We give up a lot here when it comes to enjoying the material part of the world, so, heaven become our new world (home)with all the perfect enjoyment that comes with it. Christ told us to store up treasures in heaven, those treasures come from how we live our lives here.
Many here work toward a retirement here, we're to work for a perfect retirement in heaven. So, you see heaven and this world are tied with each other for the Christian.
Okay, to answer your question as you presented it, I get nothing from religion except worries, religion is a ritual practice that brings a stifling effect on a relationship with Christ. I know and understand the religious practices in a church service is practical for many reasons and I do not mind them they help to organize the service, which is a good thing.
Through my Christian faith I have come to value others more than I did before hand, I care for others in a special way, one that helps me give more of me and not look to receive anything in return, though much comes my way in the fact I see the effects it has on others. This is just one of many ways treasure is stored up in heaven, though I do not worry much about that, God will take care of that for me.
Peace, there's a peace that goes beyond understanding, something I did not understand before, something I treasure now. Also the revelations that come from God through the Holy Spirit, I receive an understanding of difficult scripture, see new things when I study scripture, many of these things are help in living the Christian life I chose.
Hate, yes I've learned to hate, hate the right things, those things that are detrimental to men/women that keep them from God. Hate the things humans can do to other humans, I have to be very careful with this, not to let it cross over to the people themselves. People like ISIS and terrorist in general are a trouble spot for me, prayer helps.
Speaking of prayer, this has to be one of the greatest things in a Christian's life, if it's not something is wrong. Through prayer we can release the power of God in and for our lives, the areas this covers are to numerous to list. The peace and understanding it brings when done with the correct attitude is enormous.
Sadness and hurt are a part of the Christian life, sadness comes in many ways and hurt comes with the sadness. The greatest sadness I experience would be those who die that do not know Christ, especially those who are close to you. Watching people waste their lives on drugs and alcohol, I use to live in that world and know every well the effects of these things. Now would I begrudge a person from enjoy a couple beers or a shot of good bourbon, not as long as they were not an alcoholic, I enjoy both on occasion, I enjoy the taste and do not drink for the high.
The greatest part of Christianity is the relationship between Christ, others and myself. Whether I'm sharing Christ through living my life or through telling others about Him. I also love learning what the Bible teaches and discovery of the mysteries in the scriptures. It's a life I would not trade for the entire world. But I would willingly suffer to see one lost person find Christ.

GC

(February 4, 2015 at 6:21 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Physical objects and events are not ‘about’ anything. They just are. For the ontological naturalist the apparent intentional behavior of some things, from thermostats to human beings, is an illusion. That means that any concept that hinges on intentionality, like meaning and purpose, is also just a phantasy.

To say that something is an illusion isn't necessarily to say that it's phantasy. All it means is that there is a description of the phenomena that is closer to reality than the surface description normally attributed to a thing. If meaning and intentionality are illusions, it simply means there's a better description of them than the one we have. It doesn't imply that the phenomena are empty.

Quote:Through my Christian faith I have come to value others more than I did before hand, I care for others in a special way, one that helps me give more of me and not look to receive anything in return, though much comes my way in the fact I see the effects it has on others.

Thank you for answering the question. Did you treat people badly before you became a Christian?

Quote:Peace, there's a peace that goes beyond understanding, something I did not understand before, something I treasure now. Also the revelations that come from God through the Holy Spirit, I receive an understanding of difficult scripture, see new things when I study scripture, many of these things are help in living the Christian life I chose.

I think that this is a major draw of religion. Life can be hard and having the feeling that something larger and wiser than you is in control is probably very comforting.

Quote:Hate, yes I've learned to hate, hate the right things, those things that are detrimental to men/women that keep them from God. Hate the things humans can do to other humans, I have to be very careful with this, not to let it cross over to the people themselves. People like ISIS and terrorist in general are a trouble spot for me, prayer helps.

This is difficult for me also. It helps me to remember that the people who commit atrocities are also human and that if I treated them in the same manner that they treated their victims, I would be no better than them.

(February 5, 2015 at 3:58 pm)rasetsu Wrote: To say that something is an illusion isn't necessarily to say that it's phantasy. All it means is that there is a description of the phenomena that is closer to reality than the surface description normally attributed to a thing. If meaning and intentionality are illusions, it simply means there's a better description of them than the one we have. It doesn't imply that the phenomena are empty.

I think you are referring to an epistemological difference of degree (like Newtonian vs. Quantum physics) whereas I am pointing to an ontological difference of kind.
I think an illusion occurs when something only appears to be one thing when it is actually another. For example, the thing in the dark corner may appear to be a snake when it is actually a coil of rope. Mistaking a coil of rope for a snake is an error of kind, not of degree.

As it applies to the issue of intentionality, something either has it or it doesn’t. The needle of a thermostat only appears intent on reaching the set point, whereas a cheetah actually intends to nab zebras. I say the goal directed behavior of the thermostat is an illusion while the goal directed behavior of the cheetah is real – a difference of kind.

Likewise, as it applies to meaning, the idea that meaning can be found in a purely physical description of something is ludicrous. While the physical beads can represent the non-physical ideas of enumeration, no purely physical description of an abacus would ever reveal the significance of the beads. Again, we see a difference in kind between a sign and its significance.

(February 3, 2015 at 1:18 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I never said that meaning was preassigned. People can still find their own meaning and still be a part of something larger than they can even imagine.

That option is not available to ontological naturalists.

Thank you for your concern, though.

It is true, the illusion isn't there for us seekers of truth.