In fact, forget about the poker and the blackjack!

(February 15, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Alex K Wrote: This thread is very fascinating. I don't understand a single word. You could all just be writing random stuff as far as I'm concerned...

Alex K is hereby invited to every home game ever.

(February 15, 2015 at 10:36 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Well since its spread limit I would bet the limit and see who hangs around.

Typically when I bet, it is for one of following reasons.
1. For Value.....I think I have the best hand, I want worse hands to pay me off.
2. For Bluff.......I want better hands to fold.
3. To increase my equity by causing others with equity to fold.

With K and Q on the board. A bet here is not for value. With two limpers left who I peg as players who make lots of calling mistakes, I doubt they fold better hands. Most of the equity given up by players who fold to a bet isn't going to me.

I checked because I just didn't see how a bet would accomplish anything. The button bets, and the two limpers fold. Its heads up and I am out of position.

My options.
1. fold
2. call
3. check raise

Which is the best option?

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(February 15, 2015 at 12:39 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Raise to 20 preflop, obv. With three limpers ahead of you 16 is just gross. You may as well have limped yourself.

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Frankly, once the hand went 5 way, your jacks became about as valuable as deuces. If I can't isolate with a hand like that, I turn to set mining and occasionally running bluffs. I might just check it down here, which is admittedly meh, but this really isn't the greatest spot.

I don't expect a bet to take it down here very often, but I might throw out 20 and see what happens. Reevaluate the turn. When you get called, at least you know you're probably behind. :p

I don't mind catching a jack on the turn (if I bet here). Depends on how many donks you have in the game that would peel for a gutterball for $20. The pot odds aren't there and the implied odds aren't either.

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Don't they spread pot or no limit in your neck of the woods, Heywood? Limit poker just sucks so hard.

This was really a 2-10 spread limit game with a kill....and this was a kill pot(I called it 4-20 because I didn't want to explain what a kill is). The players seemed a little more timid in kill pots, I had been betting 16 with hands like KJ against limpers and everyone folds which is a coup in my opinion. I figure I bet 16 here with premium hands and mediocre hands to make it harder to read me. I figure 16 gets the job done, by either folding everyone out, or going to the flop heads up with position with one of the limpers. The limpers all have less than 100 in front of them so take the bulk of their stacks when this hand goes to show down and I win. I was surprised that this pot went this multiway.

I do agree that raising the max preflop in this game is often the best play. The money in this game is made preflop and on the flop. Because of the structure, its harder to get people to make mistakes on the turn and river. The pot is just too large compared to bet sizes. In a non kill pot, I raise to the max preflop. I three bet to the max pre-flop, but fold to a three bet as my default.

I think the local Indian casino spreads 5-500 sometimes.....which I need to get into that game.

(Wait, two limpers? I thought you said there were three?)

I don't know, Heywood, what's your read on the button? What's his read on you? What's his range here? Is he going to call you preflop to outplay you after the flop? Is he ever going to 3 bet back at you with air? Is he gonna lay down a better hand?

Without a read, I'm going to assume he's playing ABC, hit to flop, and I'm folding.

If I him seeing calling your raise to outplay you preflop, then maybe a checkraise is worth a try, but the way you played it, I'm going to fold here a lot of the time, and the only reason I'm ever check calling here is to set up meta for when I have the nuts I want to slow play (and I don't slow play out of the cutoff as a general rule - so let's just say, I'm never calling here). If you're going to check call a marginal made hand, then you probably ought to just bet out in limit. What's your plan if you call? Check call the next two streets?

(In fact, I'm pretty much only check raising with this hand here for meta too).

Frankly, I think this is one of those spots I dislike intensely, and pretty much the number one reason why I want to muck jacks preflop (though, duh, I don't) - although admittedly, a large part of why I hate this position is because of how you played the hand preflop with that weaksauce raise.

Once the limpers fold, you're heads up, out of position, with a meh hand on a wet board. Just fold. This isn't one of those questionable spots.

(February 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: This was really a 2-10 spread limit game with a kill....and this was a kill pot(I called it 4-20 because I didn't want to explain what a kill is).

Anyone who has any business answering questions likes this knows what a kill is. Just sayin'.

(February 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: The players seemed a little more timid in kill pots, I had been betting 16 with hands like KJ against limpers and everyone folds which is a coup in my opinion. I figure I bet 16 here with premium hands and mediocre hands to make it harder to read me. I figure 16 gets the job done, by either folding everyone out, or going to the flop heads up with position with one of the limpers. The limpers all have less than 100 in front of them so take the bulk of their stacks when this hand goes to show down and I win. I was surprised that this pot went this multiway.

Well, obviously, you know the local meta better than I do, but with three limpers as stated in the OP (or even two as you stated later), making it 20 to go discourages the blinds and the limpers from speculating based on pot odds. I don't alter my raise amounts based on the cards I hold - I alter it based on the situation: and 2-3 limpers ahead of me with the button and blinds left to act tells me to cut down the pot odds as much as I can.

(February 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: I do agree that raising the max preflop in this game is often the best play. The money in this game is made preflop and on the flop. Because of the structure, its harder to get people to make mistakes on the turn and river. The pot is just too large compared to bet sizes. In a non kill pot, I raise to the max preflop. I three bet to the max pre-flop, but fold to a three bet as my default.

Yeah, I agree that in such games it's harder to get people to make mistakes on the turn and river. Such is the nature of limit and spread-limit games (and a great argument for not playing them LOL).

I wouldn't alter your play just because it's a kill pot. Max raise because you a) have position, b) have a premium hand that doesn't play well multiway (and is hard to play postflop), and c) because limiting the field should be your goal. Making the smaller raise encourages more calls, which is going to make the pot bigger, and make it harder for you to induce mistakes later. If they all fold, that's fine with me here too.

(February 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm)Heywood Wrote: I think the local Indian casino spreads 5-500 sometimes.....which I need to get into that game.

It's kind of funny, I live in Washington where poker is legal, and poker rooms are common - yet pot limit and no limit is illegal. It's legal on reservations and licensed social gaming clubs (*) a short drive away in Oregon. In WA there is a 40 dollar maximum bet codified into law (so we do see 4-40 spread in card rooms). I suppose that the thinking is that limiting the bet size helps gamblers limit losses or something - but you know what, I see donkeys running though a stack just a fast in those games as I do in NL - and in my view, limit games only increase the luck factor and take a lot of the tools away from skilled players.


(*) Though the legal social clubs are limited to a "shootout" format, where they buyin is limited (often to about 50 big blinds), and everyone has to cash down to the maximum buy in every hour, so no big stacks are ever really in play. I swear the goddamned bureaucrats want to ruin the game.

(February 15, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Alex K Wrote: This thread is very fascinating. I don't understand a single word. You could all just be writing random stuff as far as I'm concerned...

Basically with three ponies in a line, your options are to double into the Kings or just go flat on a dime.

Either way, it's a race for the big hit and the seated limper can't always jump even if you catch him doubling his own blind.

Better to just go in loud than hold back, a trumpet could eventually decide whether you read his call.

(February 15, 2015 at 4:52 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (Wait, two limpers? I thought you said there were three?)

I don't know, Heywood, what's your read on the button? What's his read on you? What's his range here? Is he going to call you preflop to outplay you after the flop? Is he ever going to 3 bet back at you with air? Is he gonna lay down a better hand?

Without a read, I'm going to assume he's playing ABC, hit to flop, and I'm folding.

If I him seeing calling your raise to outplay you preflop, then maybe a checkraise is worth a try, but the way you played it, I'm going to fold here a lot of the time, and the only reason I'm ever check calling here is to set up meta for when I have the nuts I want to slow play (and I don't slow play out of the cutoff as a general rule - so let's just say, I'm never calling here). If you're going to check call a marginal made hand, then you probably ought to just bet out in limit. What's your plan if you call? Check call the next two streets?

(In fact, I'm pretty much only check raising with this hand here for meta too).

Frankly, I think this is one of those spots I dislike intensely, and pretty much the number one reason why I want to muck jacks preflop (though, duh, I don't) - although admittedly, a large part of why I hate this position is because of how you played the hand preflop with that weaksauce raise.

Once the limpers fold, you're heads up, out of position, with a meh hand on a wet board. Just fold. This isn't one of those questionable spots.

When that pot went multiway, I had already planned to just check fold if two over cards came on the flop. I folded, he didn't show, but I got the impression I folded the best hand. After a session, I usually pick a hand to do off table work and figured this was a good one.....cause it left a bad taste in my mouth.

The guys cold call range? Figure JJ-22,AQs-A2s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AQo-ATo,KTo+,QTo+,JTo.

This guy makes cold call mistakes before the flop, but plays reasonably well after the flop. There is a monte carlo board so people play at lot of baby pairs and suited connectors against raises. I'm still ahead of most of his range and if we exclude some of the offsuit broadways, I'm even further ahead of his range.

The question is, what range does he take a stab at the pot? I'm sure the guy has seen me check raise before. His bluff only has to work 23% of the time to break even but he has to get thru two bad players who make lots of calling mistakes. Lets say he stabs with this range:

JJ-99,66,AQs-ATs,A6s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,76s,AQo-AJo,KQo

My equity is about 45%(equilab)....I think I should have called this guy down expecting to be beat most of the time.

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(February 15, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(February 15, 2015 at 12:42 pm)Alex K Wrote: This thread is very fascinating. I don't understand a single word. You could all just be writing random stuff as far as I'm concerned...

Alex K is hereby invited to every home game ever.

Alex K is pretty smart. I bet he could be taught in one day enough poker to beat a typical home game.

Regarding calling down against what you think his range is there - meh, yeah you could do that. Kinda gross though - I personally hate calling when I'm as unsure as you seemed to be where I'm at in a hand on the flop.

You may very well have folded the best hand - it happens. If your opponent is the type that will fire three barrels at it in position, it's gonna cost you another sixty bucks to find out if you're right. Check calling gives you so little information here - you're almost committed to call it down all the way regardless of what happens. You gonna fold when a card that connects with his range comes? Thats like 2/3 of the deck. LOL.

I think it's a good fold - not necessarily because you're best here, but because it's such a marginal spot.

I agree with what you're saying about the Monte Carlo board being in play - I see the same kind of shit, people seeing a flop with any hand that has the capability of making quads or a straight flush (*).

(*) MC games leave a bad taste in my mouth, I lost with a flopped set of aces to a flopped set of kings in a huge pot years ago. AAAKK vs KKKK. Sadly, no bad beat jackpot.

Oh yeah - Alex is smart, and maybe he could learn enough in a day to beat a donkish home game by playing ABC tight poker. Maybe. The kind of players I often play with eat ABC players for lunch, though. :p

Oh - you said that the guy has probably seen you check raise before. Is that something you do often? (I usually play PL or NL, and I very rarely check raise - admittedly it is more viable in limit and spread limit games.). Reason I ask is this - when I note someone is overusing the check raise, I'll make a point to 3 bet over them more often, even with air. I wouldn't want that to happen in this spot with a hand that has marginal showdown value.