Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 7:57 pm
(February 25, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Nestor Wrote: I can never wrap my brain around where that actually leaves "the perspective of the photon" emitted from a galaxy so distant that it can never reach us due to inflation. People have explained it to me before and I'm always just left dumbfounded. Take a rubber band and cut it. Hold it so that it dangles. If you put a drop of water on it, the water drop will fall the length of the rubber band and hit the floor. Now, with some assistance, grab both ends of the rubber band (sill vertical) and as the drop is falling, stretch the rubber band. the water will take longer to reach the end of the band. Given a hypothetical rubber band, you could continue stretching and the water drop will continue falling and never catch up with the end of the band.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 1065
Threads: 6
Joined: June 19, 2014
Reputation:
15
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 8:03 pm
(February 25, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Nestor Wrote: I can never wrap my brain around where that actually leaves "the perspective of the photon" emitted from a galaxy so distant that it can never reach us due to inflation. People have explained it to me before and I'm always just left dumbfounded.
Think it as you are swimming against a current. If the current is pushing you back faster than you can swim, you will never reach your destination.
Expanding space is the current
You the photon.
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 8:04 pm
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2015 at 8:19 pm by IATIA.)
(February 25, 2015 at 6:41 am)bennyboy Wrote: (February 25, 2015 at 1:13 am)Surgenator Wrote: Special relativity axiom is violated in the photon's reference frame. The axiom states the speed of light is constant in all inertial reference frame. That is not the case for the photon's reference frame. Special relativity isn't valid. It doesn't how far the photon traveled or how long it existed, the axiom is still violated.
Who says that the photon is light in its own reference frame? Everything is in it's own reference frame. Literally, everything. Particles, quarks, waves, atoms, molecules, etc.. Even the adjacent cells in your fingers are in different reference frames. Technically, there are absolutely no two items in the universe in the same reference frame, albeit some things may be considered as such for ease of calculations.
Einstein's relativity formulas are based on -- here it comes -- ready? -- relativity. The relative observations between multiple observers. As the perspective of a photon is non-existent, there is NO reference frame for a photon to observe, thus, there is NO photon reference frame, ergo, NO relativity.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 9147
Threads: 83
Joined: May 22, 2013
Reputation:
46
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 9:31 pm
(February 25, 2015 at 8:04 pm)IATIA Wrote: Everything is in it's own reference frame.
[. . .]
As the perspective of a photon is non-existent, there is NO reference frame for a photon to observe, thus, there is NO photon reference frame, ergo, NO relativity.
If everything is in its own reference frame, and a photon does not have a reference frame, then you are saying that a photon is not a thing. That's what I just said a couple posts ago, and what we discussed in the photons--> idealism thread.
bennyboy Wrote:In v1.0 of this thread, I took the position that a photon wasn't a thing at all
Posts: 5399
Threads: 256
Joined: December 1, 2013
Reputation:
60
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 10:21 pm
It's depressing that the lottery in my evolutionary history apparently drew up a brain completely left blank when it comes to but the most basic of concepts in physics.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 10:27 pm
(This post was last modified: February 25, 2015 at 10:28 pm by IATIA.)
(February 25, 2015 at 9:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I took the position that a photon wasn't a thing at all If you were to travel at the speed of light, you would not be aware of anything until you slowed at which time it would seem that you had instantly traveled to the other side of the galaxy even though it took 100,000 years. Did you cease to exist?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 9147
Threads: 83
Joined: May 22, 2013
Reputation:
46
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 25, 2015 at 11:25 pm
(February 25, 2015 at 10:27 pm)IATIA Wrote: (February 25, 2015 at 9:31 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I took the position that a photon wasn't a thing at all If you were to travel at the speed of light, you would not be aware of anything until you slowed at which time it would seem that you had instantly traveled to the other side of the galaxy even though it took 100,000 years. Did you cease to exist?
No. The universe condensed into a singularity and I instantly arrived at my destination.
Posts: 1065
Threads: 6
Joined: June 19, 2014
Reputation:
15
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 12:10 am
(February 25, 2015 at 11:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 25, 2015 at 10:27 pm)IATIA Wrote: If you were to travel at the speed of light, you would not be aware of anything until you slowed at which time it would seem that you had instantly traveled to the other side of the galaxy even though it took 100,000 years. Did you cease to exist?
No. The universe condensed into a singularity and I instantly arrived at my destination.
The universe didn't condensed, it only seemed to for the observer. A subtle but important distinction.
Posts: 4196
Threads: 60
Joined: September 8, 2011
Reputation:
30
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 2:02 am
(February 25, 2015 at 11:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: No. The universe condensed into a singularity and I instantly arrived at my destination. Then how am I able to observe your progress?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
Posts: 9147
Threads: 83
Joined: May 22, 2013
Reputation:
46
RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 4:52 am
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2015 at 4:53 am by bennyboy.)
(February 26, 2015 at 12:10 am)Surgenator Wrote: (February 25, 2015 at 11:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: No. The universe condensed into a singularity and I instantly arrived at my destination.
The universe didn't condensed, it only seemed to for the observer. A subtle but important distinction. I don't think relativity is about how things SEEM. Someone who leaves Earth at a high speed and returns REALLY travels a difference relative distance than we perceive, and their clock really moves at a different rate.
Now, that's not to say the universe from OUR perspective has become a singularity. But I think a photon and the universe have a kind of inverse relationship (or maybe better to see it as perpendicular); from one framework, the other is an undefined or paradoxical quantity.
(February 26, 2015 at 2:02 am)IATIA Wrote: (February 25, 2015 at 11:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: No. The universe condensed into a singularity and I instantly arrived at my destination. Then how am I able to observe your progress? Are you?
|
