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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:17 pm
(This post was last modified: March 3, 2015 at 7:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Is human reason (as opposed to inhuman reason, lol) supposed to be binding on all of reality? Who told you this? Who believes this?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:17 pm
(March 3, 2015 at 3:22 pm)robvalue Wrote: Thoutage: what on Earth is your point?
Well, one point might be that this discussion has been going on for thousands of years and is not going to be resolved in the next dozen posts. Patience please.
Quote:You're trying to say atheists and theists are both stupid, leaving the agnostics as the winners or something?
I'm trying to say what I've already actually said a number of times. :-) And I've not called anybody stupid. Theism and atheism are both built upon a foundation of faith.
Quote:And as I already explained, you're either an atheist or a theist, by normal language.
Ok, honestly, I'm not that interested in having a dictionary war. If you think someone who is relentlessly challenging the foundations of atheism, and ruthlessly stripping away the self flattering personal identities many have created from that ideology is an atheist, ok, call it what you want, no problem.
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:20 pm
(This post was last modified: March 3, 2015 at 7:21 pm by Norman Humann.)
(March 3, 2015 at 7:17 pm)Thoughtage Wrote: And I've not called anybody stupid. Theism and atheism are both built upon a foundation of faith.
How many times do you need to hear that that's wrong?
Atheism is more or less the position that there is no good reason to believe in god. Where does the faith part come in?
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:21 pm
(This post was last modified: March 3, 2015 at 7:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You're relentlessly challenging the foundations of atheism? By repeatedly claiming that atheism is built atop a foundation of faith because some imaginary atheist that you cooked up in your head as a softball argument totally believes what you demand that "they" must? Imma be honest with ya amigo...I've got doubts.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:31 pm
(March 3, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Atheism is more or less the position that there is no good reason
to believe in god.
Yes, good summary.
(March 3, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Where does the faith part come in?
The theist believes in the conclusions in his holy book, even though there is no proof the holy book is binding on all reality, the realm it is making claims about. Faith.
The atheist believes in the conclusions delivered by reason, even though there is no proof that reason is binding on all reality, the realm it is making claims about. Faith.
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm
(March 3, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Thoughtage Wrote: This is a common and understandable complaint. If you will read again,
you will see I am not challenging reason globally, only in regards to those tasks where it's relevance and qualifications have not been demonstrated.
Is reason a great tool for building bridges? Yes, we have thousands of standing bridges as proof.
Are the rule of human reason binding on all reality? Nobody knows. We don't even know what "all of reality" refers to. Saying "I don't know" is not a bridge to declaring "Maybe yellow spiders in the Andromeda Galaxy spun mankind from their bellies" and then equating doubts about such hollow assertions with the credulous faith of those who are utterly convinced in the absence of any justification whatsoever.
If you want to call trust in evidence and reason "faith," you should invent a different term for trust in gut feeling and tradition, and then explain to us how it is you reasoned your way to the position you hold while asserting the spurious nature of that reasoning process.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm
(This post was last modified: March 3, 2015 at 7:36 pm by Norman Humann.)
(March 3, 2015 at 7:31 pm)Thoughtage Wrote: The theist believes in the conclusions in his holy book, even though there is no proof the holy book is binding on all reality, the realm it is making claims about. Faith.
The atheist believes in the conclusions delivered by reason, even though there is no proof that reason is binding on all reality, the realm it is making claims about. Faith.
Both theists and atheists take a stand on one claim only: the god claim. I'm not sure why you feel the need to squeeze all of reality into it.
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:42 pm
Thoutage, you're ignoring the rebuttals and just re-asserting your claims. The God claim is one made by humans, therefore human reason is entirely qualified to evaluate the claim. It's not a matter of over-reaching by reason to say that a claim has failed to demonstrate its validity. It may very well be an area that human reason is not equipped to truly understand, but that does not mean a claim made in that area cannot be dismissed. On top of that, reason has justified itself as a useful tool by its functionality.
Take Rhythm's waffles example. I'm quite certain that waffles are not responsible for the universe's existence, and it's laughable for you to think that I would be unjustied in saying so. Given your insistence on maintaining this flawed position, it appears as if this is nothing more than an egoistical attempt to prove yourself to be on the high ground.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:42 pm
(March 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Both theists and atheists take a stand on one claim only: the god claim. I'm not sure why you feel the need to squeeze all of reality into it.
The god claim is a claim about the fundamental nature of reality. It is a claim that reality arises from a form of intelligence.
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RE: Do we expect too much from human reason?
March 3, 2015 at 7:44 pm
(March 3, 2015 at 7:42 pm)Thoughtage Wrote: (March 3, 2015 at 7:35 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Both theists and atheists take a stand on one claim only: the god claim. I'm not sure why you feel the need to squeeze all of reality into it.
The god claim is a claim about the fundamental nature of reality. It is a claim that reality arises from a form of intelligence.
Read FNM's post. It's a claim made by humans, therefore it can be rebutted by human reasoning.
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