Hey, IRH, we used to have a pretty good forum at Evilbible except the admin was a petty tyrant who banned anyone who disagreed with him. In many ways....he thought he was god.

Except he had more power than "god" because the admin existed and god does not. But god sure is one shitty role model for an admin.

So does that prove that all atheists are bad or does it have nothing to do with disbelief in God/s?

Just that god is a poor role model.

Petty, vindictive, tyrannical, son-of-a-bitch!

(September 3, 2010 at 3:43 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: @ Min - we're talking reality here... if you choose misery in reaction to your predicament then you suffer twice.

(September 3, 2010 at 2:50 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

If you want to pick one and research it you'll see that you are mistaken. If, having researched it you find a genuine statement on the evil nature of God then please present it. I've yet to find one.

Its a prima facie argument (I did state that my knowledge is limited in this space), but if a god had killed 10's, 100's, 1000's of innocent children, then I would say that counts against him being all loving and is more consistent with being all evil. And that, this is a simpler explnation than the "grand plan" argument which is totally unsatisfying. As for doing research are you talking theological research? I know its sounds closed minded but I do find it is always disappointing spin conducted in a hemitically sealed environment going round in circular argumentation. Equally if I researched the Clash of the Titans would I find that Zeus was all loving despite his ordering Posiden to release the Kracken on the inhabintants of a greek city state?

(September 3, 2010 at 4:57 am)fr0d0 Wrote: In that story the people were choosing to live apart from God and were suffering the consequences. I guess we all expect to get burnt if we put our hands in the fire. I guess you could blame God but that would be misguided as you're blaming him for what are the consequence of his goodness... the bad stuff that happens when you act contrary to that. Yeah it's tough but it does you no good rebelling because of your crappy situation.

So clearly God is not at fault here. Any more?

Yes, of course, but he knew this entire woeful trudge through the desert, the almost ridiculous pattern of events (Israel disobeys, courts other gods, Yahweh gets angry, intervenes, repeat over and over), would take place before creating man in the first place. So you're saying he consciously placed man, whom he apparently loves, into this hostile environment we call earth with full knowledge of how much anguish and suffering man would endure. And, after the entire episode of the Hebrew Bible, he develops the plot, to make this hostile environment we call earth not the end for us, but the beginning, for now there is new suffering, eternal suffering, to be endured by those ever-disobedient humans, whom he created and with full knowledge of whole game before the first buzzer. The game was rigged from the beginning. So, why did God bother?

@ Chatty: it's over simplistic to blame God for evil.

fr0d0 in actuality he is responsible for the crimes he has committed against mankind and those he supposedly ordered his followers the Hebrews to commit through Joshua and others. If this were a man such as Hitler we would define him as he has been defined as Evil, a murderer, etc. Why should God be any different?

(September 3, 2010 at 4:34 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: Its a prima facie argument (I did state that my knowledge is limited in this space), but if a god had killed 10's, 100's, 1000's of innocent children, then I would say that counts against him being all loving and is more consistent with being all evil. And that, this is a simpler explnation than the "grand plan" argument which is totally unsatisfying. As for doing research are you talking theological research? I know its sounds closed minded but I do find it is always disappointing spin conducted in a hemitically sealed environment going round in circular argumentation. Equally if I researched the Clash of the Titans would I find that Zeus was all loving despite his ordering Posiden to release the Kracken on the inhabintants of a greek city state?

I'm requesting you look into the information that you cite thoroughly. If you see that God condoned the killing of man, child and beast as was stated recently, for example: a quick research into the actual story shows a very different picture... of a people warring and invoking God in what was direction to be fair.

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(September 3, 2010 at 4:49 pm)chatpilot Wrote: @ Chatty: it's over simplistic to blame God for evil.

fr0d0 if actuality he is responsible for the crimes he has committed against mankind and those he supposedly ordered his followers the Hebrews to commit through Joshua and others. If this were a man such as Hitler we would define him as he has been defined as Evil, a murderer, etc. Why should God be any different?

I don't find any evidence that God is what you say.

(September 3, 2010 at 4:51 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(September 3, 2010 at 4:34 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

I'm requesting you look into the information that you cite thoroughly. If you see that God condoned the killing of man, child and beast as was stated recently, for example: a quick research into the actual story shows a very different picture... of a people warring and invoking God in what was direction to be fair.

As far as I'm aware there is precious little to research at least historically, but happy to be proven wrong. I would state your brief analysis in stronger terms, ie a genocidal people looking to oust native tribes for their own ends, and inventing a god to justify there actions and hold a concensus amongst themselves despite their own savagery. But theism cannot duck this. Either there is truth in the claim that a god murdered the first born of Egypt or there isn't. If there isn't becuase it was a metaphor or myth, what value does the bible have as a doument to support a truth claim? And where is theism left without solid foundational texts?

Quote:I don't find any evidence that God is what you say.

Look harder, Frods.

Quote: Num 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Num 25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
Num 25:6 ¶ And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who [were] weeping [before] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw [it], he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
Num 25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Num 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Num 25:10 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
] Num 25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.

Your god is a monster.

Quote:Ok. A question for all christians to answer; We Atheists tend to quote a lot of very dodgy verses from the old testament in order to illustrate what a toe-rag god is-see thread on favourite bible verses.
What I want to know is this; How do you feel about the old testament god? How do you justify what he supposedly got up to? OR do you just write it off as a load of old story tales and believe that the new testament is the "true" word of god?
How the hell do you reconcile that god of the o.t. with the jesus guy? If they are the same entity, why are they so different? DO you think that maybe jesus changed into a "nice" bloke for some reason or what?
Genuine question. I'm not trying to take the piss. I just want to know your thoughts.

I enjoy the OT, it shows what kind of people God was dealing with and He correctly named them Israel (Struggles with God). We have to becareful with the OT. Atheists and fundies quickly say, 'That is what God is like!'
I watched a horrific documentary about what surgery was like 200-300 years ago, I am glad Im living today when we have know so much. Anyway, the surgeons, back then, did their best to help, to do surgery. Although they were off the mark, they were primitive in their understanding of surgery and the antomy of the human body. When we look at what they did back then, as surgeons, do we say, 'They were right and were scientific in that point in time.' or do we say, 'Those people had a primitive understanding of surgery and thankfully today we know better.'
We should perceive surgery and the OT to be similar. Just because it is written in the OT, does not mean we should take it seriously. I know that sounds like a paradox, believe in the Bible, but becareful with some parts...However, we need to live on a slippery slope, once we set up our fort, we are no longer a seeker of the truth, just a know it all...

Three problems I have with taking the OT seriously is;
1. Anthropomorphic (humanised) view of God (Moses seeing God's back, God being jealous, God wrestiling with Jacob etc)
2. We do not what God actually told them, what if the habitants of some cities and towns were to be spared, but they became to zealous and began murderous campaign and then say, 'God told me.'
3. We have to look at the culture, they were living in a very bloody culture. Read the Bible. would we not expect them to also engage in these sought of battles? and giving credit to their God?

So just something to think about it...

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Quote:Yes, of course, but he knew this entire woeful trudge through the desert, the almost ridiculous pattern of events (Israel disobeys, courts other gods, Yahweh gets angry, intervenes, repeat over and over), would take place before creating man in the first place. So you're saying he consciously placed man, whom he apparently loves, into this hostile environment we call earth with full knowledge of how much anguish and suffering man would endure. And, after the entire episode of the Hebrew Bible, he develops the plot, to make this hostile environment we call earth not the end for us, but the beginning, for now there is new suffering, eternal suffering, to be endured by those ever-disobedient humans, whom he created and with full knowledge of whole game before the first buzzer. The game was rigged from the beginning. So, why did God bother?

If you open your Bible to 1st and 2nd Kings. You will see the amount of 'good' kings being rather small compared to all the 'bad' kings. The OT is a beautiful picture to show how patient God is. He dealed with these people for a couple of years! Who would seriously have that patience? It shows that God also has that much patience for us and that God is slow to anger. Not rigged as such, but God knew He was going to get His hands dirty, really dirty, asociating with a bunch of uneducated slaves...