(September 5, 2010 at 11:44 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: But it could also be God, couldn't it?

It's actually much more likely your own brain. (There are studies that actually go to some length to prove that - it's been scientificially proven that out of body experiences are even replicable in laboratory settings by stimulating a particular area of the brain.)

(September 5, 2010 at 11:44 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: A lot of atheist tell me that they accept that there could be a God, but they don't believe in him because there's no evidence he exists. So let's, for argument's sake, say that God does exist. In that case, couldn't it have been God that I experienced rather than my own feelings? Atheists who think there could be a God should also be able to accept that what I experienced could've been God. Right?

I accept that there are beings that could certainly be godlike. Humans are even godlike in many ways in stark contrast to the human condition circa five hundred years ago - a relative blink of the geologic and evolutionary eye. There are probably even beings that would appear to be godlike to us.

However, the god of the bible does not exist. There is no evidence for his existence and that god, according to 'his word' in the bible, has left a definate footprint on the earth, or it would have if any of it actually happened as described in that book.
However, the Bible, like most religious texts, is several hundred pages of lies. We've proven that humans were not created in seven days, nor was the earth, the cosmos, and certainly any of the other life on this planet, as described via creationism.
The actions god has taken in the bible have either never happened or the supernatural undertones were outright falsficiations.

If god does exist and he/she/it created the universe, then it still means the bible is wrong and all of our 'interpretations' of what god is and represents is still wrong and it still means that your 'ookie' feelings you think are attributable to god is more likely to be something your neurons are doing and not you connecting with some supernatural force that still doesn't exist.

(September 5, 2010 at 11:44 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: But it could also be God, couldn't it? A lot of atheist tell me that they accept that there could be a God, but they don't believe in him because there's no evidence he exists. So let's, for argument's sake, say that God does exist. In that case, couldn't it have been God that I experienced rather than my own feelings? Atheists who think there could be a God should also be able to accept that what I experienced could've been God. Right?

Quote:In that case, couldn't it have been God that I experienced rather than my own feelings?

It is possible, just as it's possible that it was santa that you had experianced. The likely hood and credibility remains the same. It's because it cannot be verified, and so no matter what you feel and by what, it will never have any credibility.

Quote:Atheists who think there could be a God should also be able to accept that what I experienced could've been God. Right?

I cannot speak for all atheists but I don't class it as impossible, just highly improbable. Also, by fairness, you should also consider the possibility that what you feel/experiance comes directly from you. There happens to be evidence to suggest that it does. No evidence to suggest otherwise.
So yes I consider god a possibility as well as you experiancing him, but also I consider the possibility that it all came from you and since evidence points one way and not the other, I'm inclined to reject god and any claim to do with experiancing him.
It's all down to possibility/credibility and evidence. Your claims have none and so I with hold judgement.

Quote:Atheists who think there could be a God should also be able to accept that what I experienced could've been God. Right?

...And the god you claim to experience just happens to be the Christian god-- not say, one of these other gods:


--Or the thousands of other gods hundreds of thousands of humans have also claimed to have experienced throughout human history.

What an amazing coincidence that it just happened to be the Christian god-- the one particular god that you would most likely be familiar with by culture. Funny how it always turns out that way.

Quote: Funny how it always turns out that way.

@Entropist- Maybe the god experienced by he or others is or could be one of thsoe gods?

Apparently the only evidence that the biblical God or any god for that matter exists is in the mind of the believer based mostly on what he has been taught by his society and his cultural background.

(March 9, 2010 at 12:15 am)AngelThMan Wrote: ev·i·dence /ˈɛvɪdəns/ Show Spelled [ev-i-duhns] Show IPA noun, verb,-denced, -denc·ing.
–noun
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.

Ahh, yes, the ol' "grounds for belief" claim as a way to scoot around providing anything like physical proof for fantastic claims.

(March 9, 2010 at 12:15 am)AngelThMan Wrote: Basically, I am claiming that there’s evidence all around us that God exits.

Exits? Was that a Freudian slip?

Do you believe in evolution or intelligent design, or evolution spurred by God?

(March 9, 2010 at 12:15 am)AngelThMan Wrote: But any disrespectful responses will be immediately ignored, regardless of how intelligent your point is.

Agreed on the respect part, but it doesn't really matter which arguments you choose to ignore or not. I doubt anything said here will change anyone's mind one way or the other, especially not yours since you are convinced that this world is the handy work of a master.

(March 9, 2010 at 12:15 am)AngelThMan Wrote: Without further ado, here’s the evidence:

Drum roll ...

(March 9, 2010 at 12:15 am)AngelThMan Wrote: Humans are the only species, out of millions of species, which have evolved into an intelligent life form. Other species live pretty much to eat and sleep -- survival. If our evolution were only a result of natural selection, shouldn’t other species, or even just one, have evolved into intelligent beings after millions of years? But the fact is that no other species have been able to develop science, literature, art, music and intelligent thought process as humans have. Isn’t this evidence that God exists?

Yes it is, and for several reasons. For one thing it corroborates what’s written in the bible, which is that God created man in his image, and that animals are inferior. But to truly understand why my evidence points towards a deity one needs to be able to appreciate the grandness of this gift that is human intelligence. And you have to ask yourself, why are we the only species, out of millions, that have achieved this type of intelligence? Evolution is about natural selection, but shouldn’t at least one other species, out of millions, have benefited from intelligence? I think so. And there would be a myriad of other intelligent species if there were no God. If you can appreciate the grandness and uniqueness of human intelligence, then you’ll understand why only humans were given this gift, and you'll know why what I've outlined here points to a God.

Intelligence is quite relative (even among humans!), as others have mentioned. I thought you might have argued that humans are the only species that exhibit morals and create moral frameworks (relative to different societies, of course). As it turns out, arguments from human intelligence are easier to refute than the ones based on morality, but not much more so. On the intelligence point, we are still evolving and are far from "perfect," as it were. Insert our highly evolved brain into a monkey (assuming this is possible, a la, Dr. Frankenstein), and you will find a monkey perfectly able to type in complete sentences, paint or create music, assuming again that the unlucky human subject was knowledgeable in the arts.

And given the incredibly large number of possible planets that may exist in the universe, as yet undiscovered, scientists say that it would actually be more surprising is no intelligent life exists somewhere else in the cosmos. We exist on a spiral arm on an incredibly tiny planet compared with the rest of the cosmos. Our sun is headed toward entropy. We can be erased by a solar flare or a comet in an instance. We aren't the center of anything. Ninety-nine percent of species that once lived are now extinct.

On the morality question, I've linked to two sources in a previous post, but here they are again and a couple more: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4.

Here is a discussion on the (immensely high) probability that life exists elsewhere. Obviously, "life" is not to say "intelligent life," but given what we know about evolution by natural selection, the 10 to the 18th power (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 or one quintillion) probably that life could exist on another planet could represent a very high probability that some of that life is of a higher intelligence.

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(September 6, 2010 at 12:52 am)chatpilot Wrote: AngelThMan when I was a Christian fundamentalist I too thought that I felt God's presence around me all the time, I was constantly praying in my mind and thought I was in touch with God at all times. I later came to the conclusion that what I was experiencing was not God but rather my own mind stimulating my body through the use of emotionalism coupled with my unwavering beliefs. Many religious groups outside of Christianity claim to feel the deity of their choice in various ways, they all claim the feeling of the divine. But in the end it is nothing more than psycho-emotional.

And I've read CP story about how he came to not believe. He once was apparently casting out demons and doing all kinds of stuff "for God." I think CP knows the "experience" you are getting from God quite well. Me, I have felt inspired in church to some degree when I believed, but it was quickly fleeting when I walked out the door. Hmm ... wonder why that was. And for so long, I couldn't figure it out. But it dawned on me: "Gee, those sure were good some tunes we played this week!" and "What a thoughtful and well-delivered sermon he preached!" The things you do in church are designed to stir your emotions to make some experience you think you have appear more real. The more fervent believers have simply found a way to self-induce this experience, look for patterns and "clues" that some prayer has been answered, and the like.

To undo the Xian Baptizing is of absolute importance.
I found that out myself (I too was baptized as a baby) and researched for a way out of Xianity until I found out that there are at least two ways to undo.
Of course the Xians say that it is impossible to undo their magical baptizing, but that is only a propaganda lie.

Anyone baptized (including infant, forced on, death baptism of mormons) is a Xian. Belief is unimportant!
When you get baptized you get also instantly possessed by a succubus named "Holy Spirit" who will suck the live-power out of you until it is driven out by a magical undoing of the baptism.
As a Xian you may also well have problems getting accepted by the gods (other than Yahwe and he only cares for Jews).
That makes it double important to fight baptism.

The first way against the baptism may be too complicated for most who are no pueblo shamans. But here it comes:

The Pueblo Revolt of 1680 or Popé's Rebellion was an uprising of many pueblos of the Pueblo people against Spanish colonization of the Americas in the New Spain province of New Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_Revolt

Asked for what reason they so blindly burned the images, temples, crosses, and other things of divine worship, he stated that the said Indian, Popé, came down in person, and with him El Saca and El Chato from the pueblo of Los Taos, and other captains and leaders and many people who were in his train, and he ordered in all the pueblos through which he passed that they instantly break up and burn the images of the holy Christ, the Virgin Mary and the other saints, the crosses, and everything pertaining to Christianity, and that they burn the temples, break up the bells, and separate from the wives whom God had given them in marriage and take those whom they desired.In order to take away their baptismal names, the water, and the holy oils, they were to plunge into the rivers and wash themselves with amole, which is a root native to the country, washing even their clothing, with the understanding that there would thus be taken from them the character of the holy sacraments.
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6527/

Christian names are abolished and only traditional ones are used. [Upon baptism, Native Americans were given Christian, i.e., Spanish, names.] Baptism is “washed away” with yucca‑root soap.
http://www.historynothype.com/massacre.htm

So the great leader and medicine man Pope and his Pueblo Shamans found an effective way to debaptize themselves and all their people. They were free again after the uprising physically and spiritually

Here comes the second way for debaptizing. It is easier and it makes immune against every possible future Xian baptizing (even against death bapzing of mormons) :

Desecration of a holy catholic eucharist
(It should be a catholic one for only the catholics are sure to really be able to perform the holy magical transsubstation on the eucharist)

Read all at Crackergate about the ways of obtaining from church and desecrating a holy eucharist. They have great videos for download.
http://www.crackergate.com/

No one is anymore or can made into a Xian after desecrating a holy catholic eucharist. Every Xian baptism is undone by it and the despicable succubus "Holy Spirit" flees your body and will haunt you nevermore

Then you are free to, if you want, get in touch with the real gods

Also, straight from the horse's mouth:

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Fuck the Holy Spirit.

Oops.

(September 5, 2010 at 11:44 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: So let's, for argument's sake, say that God does exist.

OK, then, let's: