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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:41 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2015 at 5:41 pm by Quatermass.)
(April 17, 2015 at 5:35 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I don't know if you're American (I'm not), but I think that some secretly see downloading as a mini Boston Tea Party: the laws are excessive and unfair, so fuck the man. Right? 
I am not American. It is simply that the law is irrelevant, and an archaic attempt at preserving assets. I also find no evidence of downloading being the sole factor in any loss of life, liberty, employment, a company's financial solvency, destruction of property, etc.
The law is created to serve people who make money from the sale of DVD's or BluRay Discs. People who are already richer than either of us. The law has no other purpose.
As for being unfair: One might consider life unfair. But then, one might consider what if life were fair? And that all of the terrible things that happen to people do so because they actually deserve them. One should take great comfort in the general unfairness of life.
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:42 pm
(April 13, 2015 at 5:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm curious about the moral arguments for and against downloading-- specifically for downloading games, images/data and applications for free when the creating company intended for all users to make a purchase. I don't care so much whether it's right or wrong-- but on what basis the moral arguments are to be made.
For example, how does the concept of social contract apply here? How are "right" and "wrong" defined in terms of data?
It seems to me that very many people do download things, and with a clean conscience, because they don't believe that any social contract exists, and that downloading is therefore a-moral rather than immoral. Ideas?
(And please don't just shout "Downloading is stealing!" I'm looking for a moral framework in which decisions can sensibly be made)
It is property, so it has the same basis as any other theft of property.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:44 pm
(April 17, 2015 at 5:42 pm)Chas Wrote: (April 13, 2015 at 5:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm curious about the moral arguments for and against downloading-- specifically for downloading games, images/data and applications for free when the creating company intended for all users to make a purchase. I don't care so much whether it's right or wrong-- but on what basis the moral arguments are to be made.
For example, how does the concept of social contract apply here? How are "right" and "wrong" defined in terms of data?
It seems to me that very many people do download things, and with a clean conscience, because they don't believe that any social contract exists, and that downloading is therefore a-moral rather than immoral. Ideas?
(And please don't just shout "Downloading is stealing!" I'm looking for a moral framework in which decisions can sensibly be made)
It is property, so it has the same basis as any other theft of property.
Downloading a file that has already been uploaded to a server is merely duplicating the file. There is no law against duplicating the file. Duplicating property is not theft.
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:45 pm
-availing yourself of the productive efforts of another person without remuneration or consent..however, is.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:47 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2015 at 5:48 pm by Chas.)
(April 17, 2015 at 5:44 pm)Quatermass Wrote: (April 17, 2015 at 5:42 pm)Chas Wrote: It is property, so it has the same basis as any other theft of property. Downloading a file that has already been uploaded to a server is merely duplicating the file. There is no law against duplicating the file. Duplicating property is not theft. Theft of intellectual property is theft.
You can rationalize it all you want, but if I take a photograph or write a program, you have no right to simply make a copy of my work for your use.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:51 pm
(April 17, 2015 at 5:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -availing yourself of the productive efforts of another person without remuneration or consent..however, is.
And if the productive efforts of another person are no longer available by that person and only exist as copies on a torrent site (this happens).
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 5:56 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2015 at 5:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
as in, say, out of print books? If the IP doesn't have an owner they're free game. Tons of classics (and, increasingly, more recent works) are in that state. Copyrights don't last forever, you know.
Or, more like abandonware?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 6:18 pm
(April 17, 2015 at 5:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: as in, say, out of print books? If the IP doesn't have an owner they're free game. Tons of classics (and, increasingly, more recent works) are in that state. Copyrights don't last forever, you know.
Or, more like abandonware?
Both. I recently downloaded a book from a torrent site that is out of print and not available at any online vendor. But it also isn't in the Public Domain either. The only way to get it is to download what copies exist on torrent sites.
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 17, 2015 at 6:19 pm
(This post was last modified: April 17, 2015 at 6:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Then you're a theif, and IMO did something immoral. Doesn't make me think any less of you, in context. Could have found who the IP owner was and asked for consent - at the least-, if you were interested in an objectively "clear" wrap, eh?
: shrugs :
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Morality and downloading
April 18, 2015 at 11:25 pm
(April 17, 2015 at 3:45 am)Rhythm Wrote: -and yet others still think that its wrong to help yourself to someone else's productive effort, regardless of its value, regardless of any expectation of gain, regardless of any "harm"......without consent or remuneration.
When are you starting at my McDonalds? -likely never, right..because you understand that it's a shitty arrangement.......
I wrote a book I never published. It'll never make me a dime. You still can't have it....because it's mine. Is there any file on your pc..a love letter or a naked picture maybe..that you feel is yours?
I don't know why you're so narrowly focused on a morality of affordability. Lets go rape and pillage bro.....it's probably okay..because we're both poor, amiright? Are you saying it's wrong to click the "save as" button on leaked photos of a nude Kate Upton too?
...not that I even looked at them or anything...
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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