I was discussing the Big Bang with a Christian friend of mine, when he mentioned he couldn't believe in a universe without a creator because spacetime did not exist prior to the Big Bang, and he had no other explanation for the spontaneous existence of spacetime. To me, the "we can't explain it, therefore God", logic seems obviously flawed. He does, however, make a valid point. If spacetime didn't exist before the Big Bang, then nothing could have led up to its existence. The only logical conclusion is that the first existence of spacetime was spontaneous. It didn't exist, and then, without any cause, it did.

I know we are delving into what is currently beyond human knowledge, but can someone please try to explain how this might be possible?

It is wrong to say space time didn't exist before big bang. We only have knowledge of our space time till the big bang as we haven't been able to look beyond it yet. The known space and time are existences defined by laws within this known universe. We do not know the entire nature of time yet nor do we understand or know of all possible forms of energy. We cannot ignore the possibility of our time being part of a larger different timeline.

If there is no time, there is no concept of causation or something doing something, and hence the question makes no sense. That being said, we don't know whether time is finite in the naive sense when we go backwards. As aoi magi said, things can get messy in quantum gravity, and whatever happens there is probably more complicated than the simple classical singularity. As long as we don't have a clearer picture about inflation or alternatives, all bets are off anyways.

- By George, what is that bright flash in the sky? And this thundering noise!! How unpleasant!
- I know not, my liege... perhaps it's Thor banging his mighty hammer in his godly anvil.
- Ah, yes... That's the best answer, so it must be true.

Seriously, now...
God of the gaps is no valid reason to believe in a god. Never was, still isn't.
We have no way of knowing what lies beyond the big bang. Theories abound, none verifiable... at least, yet.
At best, we can tell that all this space-time we can "see" in our Universe was once confined to a very small space... and this already accepting some theory. Maybe this theory is wrong! Who knows!?

What we do know is that anyone claiming to know how it came about is definitely wrong.

There are lots of possibilities (which really means that we don't know).  Think about the future of the universe.  The last I read on the subject, the universe was believed to be presently expanding (for the latest, you might want to ask Alex K, the rocket scientist who we are depending on to solve our mineshaft-gap problem).  It could conceivably continue expanding forever.  Or another possibility is that gravity will slow everything down, and eventually pull everything back toward each other, which would result in a rather large bang when everything crashes into everything else.  If that is what will happen, perhaps that is what the "Big Bang" was all those years ago, and maybe this has been going on over and over forever.

Of course, we don't know if that is what is going on or not, or, at least, the last time I bothered reading anything on this, we did not know. Certainly, you are right that not knowing the answer to something does not justify the claim that God did it.

Some things, you just don't know, and pretending to know does not alter that fact.

(April 27, 2015 at 3:58 am)Chimoshi Wrote: I was discussing the Big Bang with a Christian friend of mine, when he mentioned he couldn't believe in a universe without a creator because spacetime did not exist prior to the Big Bang, and he had no other explanation for the spontaneous existence of spacetime. To me, the "we can't explain it, therefore God", logic seems obviously flawed. He does, however, make a valid point. If spacetime didn't exist before the Big Bang, then nothing could have led up to its existence. The only logical conclusion is that the first existence of spacetime was spontaneous. It didn't exist, and then, without any cause, it did.

I know we are delving into what is currently beyond human knowledge, but can someone please try to explain how this might be possible?

It seems to me actually don't know whether space time really is the most fundamental substrate of reality that can be probed.    So we are not in a position to opine, if space time indeed didn't exist, what could happen and how it could happen.  But there is no reason to say we can't be in such a position in the future.

Christians say we don't know, therefore there is the idiot's opportunity for God.  Having a God is so dear to them they would prefer to preserve the idiot's opportunity for God by not ever finding out.  We say find out, and let the chips fall where they may.

Argument from ignorance. God of the gaps. I don't know how it could be anything else, therefore my god must be the answer. 

We may never know what happened before the big bang, but we're getting close to finding out how everything else works. Everything we have ever had a proven explanation for has been explained by natural means. That's why people love to go to the beginning of the universe so much. That's about the only place left he could be, and even if we granted that there needs to be a divine creator, that only gets you as far as deism.

There could be an independent, external time in another reality. Our reality got split off from it, or perhaps created inside it, intentionally or otherwise.

No need for creepy old floaty men.

We don't know means "you don't know", not "therefore God".

Christianity has always thrived on the deceit of "we don't know, therefore I can pretend to know without too much fear of contradiction", backed up by the conceit of "how dare you find out and show me up,  burn in hell, or since that's but a hollow threat, burn at the stake."

(April 27, 2015 at 3:58 am)Chimoshi Wrote: I was discussing the Big Bang with a Christian friend of mine, when he mentioned he couldn't believe in a universe without a creator because spacetime did not exist prior to the Big Bang, and he had no other explanation for the spontaneous existence of spacetime. To me, the "we can't explain it, therefore God", logic seems obviously flawed. He does, however, make a valid point. If spacetime didn't exist before the Big Bang, then nothing could have led up to its existence. The only logical conclusion is that the first existence of spacetime was spontaneous. It didn't exist, and then, without any cause, it did.

I know we are delving into what is currently beyond human knowledge, but can someone please try to explain how this might be possible?

I can't believe in a creator without a creator previous to the creator.