(May 18, 2015 at 3:04 pm)Cato Wrote: Nicanica,

First of all, you are right about my assumption run amok. You having children must have been a figment of my imagination. Please accept my apologies on that point.

I still think you are misrepresenting MD's talk. I don't think you'll find anywhere that he states the desire to sin is the 'biggest' factor in jettisoning a belief in God. He did say that this is a very common criticism leveled by believers and that atheists should not feel obligated to justify other reasons for disbelief since the absurdity of the concept of sin is sufficient enough to reject the God claim. Please note that rejecting the God claim on this basis is not borne out of a desire to sin, but that the Christian concept of sin is so antithetical to human nature that it is absurdly implausible that a creator God would devise such a system. The far more reasonable conclusion is that God does not exist and that ancient power brokers devised the idea of sin under the authority of an imagined God as a means of crowd control.

Your straw man defense is dead on arrival. You were quite specific in explaining your desire to adopt atheism for no other reason than to circumvent the divorce prohibition. I don't know if there can be a more clear-cut example of giving up God in order to do what you want. 

With no children involved and assuming there is no other mitigating circumstance, I don't see any moral impediment to your desire for a divorce, sad as it may seem. Division of property and other financial matters can be negotiated between you and your wife and mediated by the courts if need be. The state you live in will determine how onerous this process is. 

I hope this isn't the case, but there's something in all this that reminds me of a professional athlete that feigns retirement in order to get out of a current contract only to shortly thereafter take up with another team and continue on as before. 

My position is that I am trying to figure out whether or not god exists. But I can not say that it is because of some existential desire to attain truth or wanting to be free of my christian indoctrination. The biggest drive is that if god does not exist, which is where I am leaning, then it frees me to not having to worship a god. Because believe it or not, I worshiped god up to this point because I did love him and believe him to be a good being. That is a whole other discussion that I am not trying to sidetrack but I genuinely believed that cared for me and gave me a set of principles for my benefit. And this god would never personally attack me or punish me but simply not resurrect me if I was not seen fit for everlasting life. For me, I feel he has the right to set the standards of such a world. So now I'm in my late 20's and I am not in the happiest of marriages and I want to do things in life that the god wouldn't suggest I do. But I do believe at this point, me and my wife could salvage a life instead of this happening in our 40's or later. It is a clusterfuck and I don't believe I can even truly express everything running through my mind but I can say this... when you said, "The OP is attempting to pass off Matt's repetition of a common believer retort in order to set up an argument as a declaration that atheists don't believe in God simply to do whatever the fuck we want without moral consequence" is an utter misconception of my position, which is the definition of a straw man. Even when I initially paraphrased Matt, I used the word immoral instead of sin. That was a mistake and I apologize for that. The point still stands though that Matt was saying that some people do de-convert because they want to "sin." The sin I would be committing per JW's is divorcing without grounds. Yes, I want to do that and being a non-believer helps me. If I believed in god then I wouldn't even consider. I would say that either way I could stick it out and work on my marriage god or no god. But you nor anyone else on this forum can really understand the cluster fuck that would be involved if we tried to work it out as a mixed beliefs couple. With great emotion, I have come to a conclusion that for me and my wife sake, we should count our losses and move on in life. And in case you're wondering, I have talked to my wife about my feelings on our marriage. Just not the non belief in god part. So she wouldn't be completely broadsided by all of this. 

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(May 18, 2015 at 3:04 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: If Matt said that most atheists can't explain why they're atheists, but that sinning is likely the biggest factor, then he's an idiot.  Again, if he said that (I'm too lazy to look).  Atheism, invariably, is non-belief stemming from a lack of evidence.  That non-belief runs the spectrum (see: gnostic atheism vs. agnostic atheism), but that's it.  But, no, we didn't go, "Man, you know what's awesome?  Sex.  And divorce.  And not going to church.  Screw god, we're gonna do what we want to do!"

Which is to say that, yes, while a lot of us say "fuck god", that was not the start of our journey, but rather an expression of what we've come to realize at the end of it.

You're looking for a way to get off the hook for divorcing your wife.  You certainly don't seem like you've come to any kind of new, fundamental understanding of your beliefs, but rather that you're looking for a way to worm out of the rules without sacrificing your core beliefs.  But, please, stop pretending you know what atheism is or is not.  Your faux turn is really disingenuous, IMO, and frankly a bit insulting since you're attempting to co-opt something you're really not as an excuse to do what you want.

Be honest: do you believe in god or not?  If so, you're not an atheist.  You may no longer want to be a JW, but there's a huge difference between wanting to leave your sect and deciding there's no credible evidence for god, and that believing in it is utterly illogical.

Matt said that people wanting to sin is a common factor for de-conversion. But it was sin according to religion. I lean towards a non belief in god but I still have logical reasoning why I think it makes sense for there to be a god. But that is almost in more of a deistic way. I don't believe there is any woo behind the term atheism. What if one more factor was added. What if I was married and gay? And I certainly knew that a marriage couldn't last  in such a manner because of the obvious reasons. But I still thought that maybe there is a god and there is some worth to investigating where I stand with belief in god. I see 3 most likely scenarios

1. I conclude belief in god but don't believe he would create humans to be gay and then have to resist the urges their whole life so I tearfully leave my wife after coming out and find a church that accepts me. But I still try to end things with my wife in the most dignifying way possible

2. I conclude belief in god but still believe in the bible message on gods disapproval of homosexuality. So I stay with my wife and continue to work on our marriage and resisting my urges. 

3. I conclude no belief in god and tearfully leave my wife trying to end things in the most dignifying way possible.

My situation is similar, because I am heterosexual and I have urges towards the opposite sex. I was not in a position in my 20's to put to rest those urges. You could say that its my religions fault because I couldn't have sex before marriage but I don't see it the way, it was my decision to get married young and I own that decision. Scenario 1 is just not an option for me. So I can say that I don't want to be someone with no moral guidance but rather not shackled to a marriage that I see no hope in all for a god that I don't even know if he exists or not. 

Nicanica, your notions of right and wrong in truth have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether a god exists or not. Once you dispel that Chimera, you'll stand a better chance of finding that the decisions you make not only more frequently conform to your best interests but are accompanied by greater sense of clarity and purpose in place of what formerly could only be called unnecessary anguish and confusion.

(May 18, 2015 at 3:35 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: Matt said that people wanting to sin is a common factor for de-conversion.

Can you provide the link for that statement?

-except that "conservative lifestyle" which you feel JW principles espouse...appears to have led to an individual such as your brother......Nica....

Can you see why I'm unimpressed? Why I doubt that following these principles is actually helpful?

(you're attracted to women other than your wife, eh? Welcome to the club buddy.)

(May 18, 2015 at 4:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(May 18, 2015 at 3:35 pm)nicanica123 Wrote: Matt said that people wanting to sin is a common factor for de-conversion.

Can you provide the link for that statement?

The video is in post #49 on this thread.

Although nicanica123 is kind of misinterpreting what Matt is actually saying. 

Matt does not say that it is a common factor in deconversion. Only that it is a possible reason, and should not be unappreciated.

Go to about the 3:30 minute mark in the vid, and watch for a couple of minutes.   

If she loves you, and you two truly get along, atheist shouldn't matter.

Only you know the answer to your question.

(May 18, 2015 at 4:36 pm)Nestor Wrote: Nicanica, your notions of right and wrong in truth have absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether a god exists or not. Once you dispel that Chimera, you'll stand a better chance of finding that the decisions you make not only more frequently conform to your best interests but are accompanied by greater sense of clarity and purpose in place of what formerly could only be called unnecessary anguish and confusion.

You're wrong in my situation because if god exists then I believe that he knows whats right and wrong. I want to do the right things. If god doesn't exist, then I'll can just chalk this one up as one of life's hard lessons and learn what I can from it and try to move on

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(May 18, 2015 at 5:27 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(May 18, 2015 at 4:37 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Can you provide the link for that statement?

The video is in post #49 on this thread.

Although nicanica123 is kind of misinterpreting what Matt is actually saying. 

Matt does not say that it is a common factor in deconversion. Only that it is a possible reason, and should not be unappreciated.

Go to about the 3:30 minute mark in the vid, and watch for a couple of minutes.   

Then go to the 5:25 mark and he says that the amount of people that become atheist to sin is probably high. I don't understand the controversy anyway. Its not like atheist are a religion with clerics. My original point was that he is a respected person in the community and he seems to think with those statements that being able to "sin" as defined by a religion, is not a bad reason to de-convert. 

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(May 18, 2015 at 5:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -except that "conservative lifestyle" which you feel JW principles espouse...appears to have led to an individual such as your brother......Nica....

Can you see why I'm unimpressed?  Why I doubt that following these principles is actually helpful?

(you're attracted to women other than your wife, eh?  Welcome to the club buddy.)

You keep asserting that I talk about bible principles in a woo type of way. And I know that there is a logical fallacy in your reasoning. For starters, correlation does not equal causation. But look at it this way, if your financial advisor told you to sell a stock that he thinks will drop in value but you don't, do you fire him because he was your financial and you still lost money? No, he is an advisor! The bible principles are a MODEL for us. If you're driving and a sign says, "keep right," well you have the full power to swerve to the left, but it might not end well. 

FFS man..................are you so dense that you haven't been following at all?  Again, that model seems to be a poor one - it produced your brother.  You need to learn a little bit about logic before you throw the word fallacy around, btw.  These are your assumptions, not mine.  I've never believed in silly little fairy tales so I don't give them the respect that you do -even in doubting them-.  

Quote:The point I was making about my brother is that he ignored his "indoctrination" and he suffered the consequences.

here, I bolded this last time, I'll isolate it this time..... apply your talents at identifying logical fallacies............is it not okay...now....when I propose something less kind?  That his current situation -is- the consequence of his indoctrination?  No...wait...wait, is it only a fallacy when the other guy uses it - or when it says something shitty about The Model™?  

Look, I don't believe your story, you know that........ right? I think it's 50/50 that you even -have- a brother............and that's okay. What you want to talk to us about, Nica, is how the principles of the bible are a model for us. Go ahead, do that......all the pomp is unnecessary.

"You know fellas..if I were "truly" an atheist, I'd divorce my wife and fuck a bunch of girls.....what do yall think about that!?!"

"You know, My Brother™ ignored his indoctrination and now hes an addict!!!!!!"

Gimme the money shot buddy:

"The bible principles are a model for us"

I love the little bit at the end though, that's choice..about how it might not end well, lol. Always a little bit of menace in these, amiright?

Would it be fair, in your estimation, to say that you feel that the principles of the bible, whatever those may be -to you-...... may be a good way to live your life, regardless of belief (and leaving the reality even, of some god, out of the picture)? Or is this -not- the conversation that we are currently having between us? Do you understand that I've expressed my disagreement about both the fundamental assumptions you have made, and the reasoning which you then apply to those assumptions... in all of these narratives about your brother? That I object to the very manner in which you are framing the conversation?

(May 22, 2015 at 8:49 am)Rhythm Wrote: FFS man..................are you so dense that you haven't been following at all?  Again, that model seems to be a poor one - it produced your brother.  You need to learn a little bit about logic before you throw the word fallacy around, btw.  These are your assumptions, not mine.  I've never believed in silly little fairy tales so I don't give them the respect that you do -even in doubting them-.  

FFS yourself, this is why I asked the question about if atheist can admit to their own logical fallacies. You can't acknowledge the fact that you keep implying that since he was a JW before that it seems to have cause his problems. Whether or not he is real, you're committing the post hoc fallacy. Everyone thinks that they can get called out on their shit but when it happens thats when the cognitive dissonance helps you reason why you're not wrong or using fallacies. Sure, its as simple as if the bible said, "don't touch fire because it will burn you" But I am saying that in his situation with the principles would have helped him out. Divinely inspired or not

You're a moron, I offered that explicitly as a response to your continued insistence that his abandonment of jw principles had consequences.  You know...that thing you're harping on about now....the fallacy you seemed to have googled -after- having made up this idiotic little story -around it-. Please, though, continue with your explanation of dissonance, and what people do when they get "called out on their shit".........

I don't think they would have helped "him", because they -didn't- help "him".  They don't seem to be helping you either, in this instance, huh?  As you say, divinely inspired or not. Being an atheist isn't going to help you divorce your wife btw dipshit. For that, you'll need a lawyer. There you go, the first tip's free. My wife and I are also a "mixed beliefs" couple...in that she has them and I don't...so no, your clusterfuck of a relationship isn't quite as unique as you might imagine, and many of us here -could- empathize with you (particularly if you gave us reason to)......... I got married, the first time, when I was 19. I was as unprepared for that then as you seem to be now. Let me give you some advice, brother to brother... no less.... regardless of whether or not god exists...

Quote:chalk this one up as one of life's hard lessons and learn what I can from it and try to move on

eh?

Regarding the "if there is a god" bit.....I do understand, but I'd suggest that you set your sights a little bit lower. Sure...do right by god, but maybe, first, do right by the people directly next to you (like your wife), who have needs and desires, anguish and joy in accessible form - where you have demonstrable impact and responsibility. Your wife might appreciate finding someone who doesn't feel the need to "work on it" - even if -you- are willing to "work on it". You'll have to own up to this stuff no matter which way you go...so that your partner can then make the same choices, consider the same things...that you are here now considering...with us...rather than her. For all you know....she'll breath a giant sigh of relief and say.........

"you too, because I've felt horrible about this for awhile now?"