What Randy means is "We have found a nice way to tell you your "different" feminine role is mandatory".

(June 4, 2015 at 6:54 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: BTW - did you know that you and I are not actually discussing anything? I'm only proselytizing (having dropped all pretenses). 

Don't worry, it's not gone unnoticed.

1. Don't speculate about me, you'll fail every time.
2. Why the lies? The church hasn't "given" women the opportunities we have now. Decades, in fact centuries of women, and men, standing alongside women, fighting for rights, is the reason we have many of the rights we have now.
3. Fighting contraception and women's reproductive rights is NOT "protecting" women. It's denying women the right to control their own bodies and reproduction. That's HARMFUL to women.

Quote:Unlike every other Christian group, we are not changing on contraception, and we won't be changing on abortion, either. Two more ways the Church protects women. So, it's not all bad.

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I came to learn more about atheism. I've been doing Catholic apologetics for 10 years or so. I thought it might be interesting to broaden my skills to Christian apologetics. Islam and Atheism are two areas of concern that I, as a Christian, have about the future of the world. So, I decided to chat with you folks.

Well we share one thing in common, worry about Islam.  It's just that I worry about Christians and Mormons too.

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: And I must say, it's been a far different experience than I expected. Atheists are often depicted in the media as being the really smart people, the brainy science types, and the books and articles that I have read were based upon really complex philosophical arguments. 

Two notes here.  First of all most scientist are atheists, but it doesn't follow that most atheists are scientists.  Second, no complex reasoning is required to comprehend that the god hypothesis remains woefully unsupported.  A basic understanding of how to weigh scientific and historical evidence dispassionately is all that's necessary.  

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: So, to find that this site is mostly about venting anger and sophomoric humor has been a bit of an eye-opener...but that, too, has been educational.

Yes, well, this is the internet and we're often surrounded by the pious. This is a place to let our hair down so to speak. You may have noticed that there is more interest in such humor among those of us in the very Christian United States, than in more secular parts of the world. 

Also, you haven't appeared to have spent much time anywhere here but your own threads.  You might get out and about a little.  You see, it gets irritating after a while to have one Christian after another with the same tired arguments presenting them as if they would be news.  Your clones have been here before you

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: For example, until a few days ago, I didn't really understand the depths of the 'myther' lunacy, but now I know that group is really a fringe of atheism...not taken terribly seriously by more educated atheists.

No, not generally, although it's a growing movement.  And I wouldn't go so far as to call in lunacy.  I think it's unlikely, but considerably more likely than the divinity of Jesus.

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I'm also learning that a lot of atheists have emotional reasons for rejecting God. They were hurt as children, hurt in an abusive marriage, etc. These folks are just pissed off...and it's not terribly conducive to logical discourse when the other side is blinded by anger. I'm not saying I don't blame them, btw, but I think the anger is misplaced...and definitely misdirected at me. 

There are plenty of people who turn to god for all of the same reasons.  Campus crusades goes after them deliberately.  It's a good strategy.  But I don't think many atheists here are atheists because they are angry.  However, navigating the U.S. as an atheist certainly can make you angry.

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I think the other big category of atheists is the "volitional" atheists...the ones who simply don't WANT to acknowledge God - as God. They may be living with their boyfriend/girlfriend or using contraception or deeply addicted to pornography, etc. To admit that there is a holy God who expects all of us to be Holy (and makes it possible) requires giving up these pleasures. There's more to that, but the bottom line is that everybody wants to sit upon the throne of their own life...but there is another king to whom we owe fealty.

I have no interest in god's rules when I find them arbitrary or immoral---yes immoral, like discrimination against gays.  But I don't think many atheists are atheists so they can misbehave.  Compared to the rest of America, atheists divorce less:  http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistfamil...ivorce.htm and are less likely to be in prison (just .07% of the incarcerated population even though we approach 10% of the U.S. population)http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...-imagined/.  It seems unlikely therefore, that people are becoming atheists to avoid morality.  But we do see morality differently than you.  Pornography, and *gasp* living together, per-marital sex, and contraceptives, aren't wrong.  

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Finally, yes, there are intellectual objections to Christianity. Real ones that cannot be dismissed or taken lightly. This just doesn't seem to be the place where those issues are aired. Christianity is not being taken seriously enough here for that to happen.

You've yet to take off your blinders.  You do not think logically on the subject of god, nor do you weight evidence rationally.  Your ability to compartmentalize is astounding.  Nor do you actually pay attention to much real evolutionary theory.  You're too busy refuting the evolution you have made up to look at what is actually there.

Quote:So, I'm enjoying the discussions, learning a lot, and trying to provide Catholic Answers as best I can. Hopefully, you're benefiting in some way, too.

Peace.

A think the phrase here is "new chew toy."

I recommend a good book on logic and one on historical method.  Choose neutral ones not interested in the god debate.  Then apply then to god and the Bible.

(June 4, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Beccs Wrote: 1.  Don't speculate about me, you'll fail every time.

That wasn't speculation.

Quote:2.  Why the lies?  The church hasn't "given" women the opportunities we have now.  Decades, in fact centuries of women, and men, standing alongside women, fighting for rights, is the reason we have many of the rights we have now.

Read the encyclical.

Quote:3.  Fighting contraception and women's reproductive rights is NOT "protecting" women.  It's denying women the right to control their own bodies and reproduction.  That's HARMFUL to women.

There are two victims in every abortion. My sister had one. Today, she runs a ministry helping other survivors. So, don't give me your feminist BS.

Abortion kills.

---

(June 4, 2015 at 7:35 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I came to learn more about atheism. I've been doing Catholic apologetics for 10 years or so. I thought it might be interesting to broaden my skills to Christian apologetics. Islam and Atheism are two areas of concern that I, as a Christian, have about the future of the world. So, I decided to chat with you folks.

Well we share one thing in common, worry about Islam.  It's just that I worry about Christians and Mormons too.

Is there something about Mormons and genital mutilation that I should know about?

Quote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: And I must say, it's been a far different experience than I expected. Atheists are often depicted in the media as being the really smart people, the brainy science types, and the books and articles that I have read were based upon really complex philosophical arguments. 

Two notes here.  First of all most scientist are atheists, but it doesn't follow that most atheists are scientists.  Second, no complex reasoning is required to comprehend that the god hypothesis remains woefully unsupported.  A basic understanding of how to weigh scientific and historical evidence dispassionately is all that's necessary.  

What scientific evidence would you weigh with regard to God, angels or demons?

Quote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: So, to find that this site is mostly about venting anger and sophomoric humor has been a bit of an eye-opener...but that, too, has been educational.

Yes, well, this is the internet and we're often surrounded by the pious. This is a place to let our hair down so to speak. You may have noticed that there is more interest in such humor among those of us in the very Christian United States, than in more secular parts of the world. 

Also, you haven't appeared to have spent much time anywhere here but your own threads.  You might get out and about a little.  You see, it gets irritating after a while to have one Christian after another with the same tired arguments presenting them as if they would be news.  Your clones have been here before you.

Jenny, I might venture out but there are two problems:

1. I'm way outnumbered. Consequently, I can't join in too many threads because I would be swarmed.
2. rexbeccarox specifically warned me about not posting often enough...even in my own threads. She was threatening to ban me if I did not step up my game. I think this was a matter of public record and not by PM, btw.

Quote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: For example, until a few days ago, I didn't really understand the depths of the 'myther' lunacy, but now I know that group is really a fringe of atheism...not taken terribly seriously by more educated atheists.

No, not generally, although it's a growing movement.  And I wouldn't go so far as to call in lunacy.  I think it's unlikely, but considerably more likely than the divinity of Jesus.

Sorry, Jenny. When atheists like Bart Ehrman and the forum's own Tim O'Neill can be honest enough to admit that Jesus was a real person...and still be atheist...then yeah, the lunatic fringe has its work cut out for it.

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

Quote:I'm also learning that a lot of atheists have emotional reasons for rejecting God. They were hurt as children, hurt in an abusive marriage, etc. These folks are just pissed off...and it's not terribly conducive to logical discourse when the other side is blinded by anger. I'm not saying I don't blame them, btw, but I think the anger is misplaced...and definitely misdirected at me. 

There are plenty of people who turn to god for all of the same reasons.  Campus crusades goes after them deliberately.  It's a good strategy.  But I don't think many atheists here are atheists because they are angry.  However, navigating the U.S. as an atheist certainly can make you angry.

Because Christians are so...well behaved? Family oriented? What? Never mind. I know those 10 Commandment plaques at the County Courthouse tie you up in knots.

But yes, there are people who turn to God for all sorts of reasons. And He answers them in all sorts of ways. But those who turn away from God also get the answer they are looking for, don't they? How can they not? It's self-fulfilling.

Quote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: I think the other big category of atheists is the "volitional" atheists...the ones who simply don't WANT to acknowledge God - as God. They may be living with their boyfriend/girlfriend or using contraception or deeply addicted to pornography, etc. To admit that there is a holy God who expects all of us to be Holy (and makes it possible) requires giving up these pleasures. There's more to that, but the bottom line is that everybody wants to sit upon the throne of their own life...but there is another king to whom we owe fealty.

I have no interest in god's rules when I find them arbitrary or immoral---yes immoral, like discrimination against gays.  But I don't think many atheists are atheists so they can misbehave.  Compared to the rest of America, atheists divorce less: and are less likely to be in prison (just .07% of the incarcerated population even though we approach 10% of the U.S. population) It seems unlikely therefore, that people are becoming atheists to avoid morality.  But we do see morality differently than you.  Pornography, and *gasp* living together, per-marital sex, and contraceptives, aren't wrong.  

They are if God says they are. Which, of course, is why God must be done away with.

Quote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Finally, yes, there are intellectual objections to Christianity. Real ones that cannot be dismissed or taken lightly. This just doesn't seem to be the place where those issues are aired. Christianity is not being taken seriously enough here for that to happen.

You've yet to take off your blinders.  You do not think logically on the subject of god, nor do you weight evidence rationally.  Your ability to compartmentalize is astounding.  Nor do you actually pay attention to much real evolutionary theory.  You're too busy refuting the evolution you have made up to look at what is actually there.

I've said surprisingly little about it, and I will withhold further comment until I've had a chance to read more.

Quote:

Quote:So, I'm enjoying the discussions, learning a lot, and trying to provide Catholic Answers as best I can. Hopefully, you're benefiting in some way, too.

Peace.

A think the phrase here is "new chew toy."

I recommend a good book on logic and one on historical method.  Choose neutral ones not interested in the god debate.  Then apply then to god and the Bible.

Well, my friends do accuse me of being like a dog with a bone at times. So, yeah, I'm pretty interested in learning what you have to say.

(June 4, 2015 at 7:41 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Beccs Wrote: 1.  Don't speculate about me, you'll fail every time.

That wasn't speculation.

Quote:2.  Why the lies?  The church hasn't "given" women the opportunities we have now.  Decades, in fact centuries of women, and men, standing alongside women, fighting for rights, is the reason we have many of the rights we have now.

Read the encyclical.

Quote:3.  Fighting contraception and women's reproductive rights is NOT "protecting" women.  It's denying women the right to control their own bodies and reproduction.  That's HARMFUL to women.

There are two victims in every abortion. My sister had one. Today, she runs a ministry helping other survivors. So, don't give me your feminist BS.

Abortion kills.

Yes, that was speculation, despite your denials of facts.

Provide examples.

No, there are no victims in an abortion.

Good for your sister.  That she feels guilty about it doesn't speak for the majority of women who have them.

Cancer treatment kills, too.  Should that be banned?

So, spare me your own sanctimonious bullshit.  (and if you're going to say it, say it!)

I'm not going to type f**k.  I'll type fuck, when I mean to say, fuck!

(June 4, 2015 at 7:55 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 7:41 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: That wasn't speculation.



Read the encyclical.



There are two victims in every abortion. My sister had one. Today, she runs a ministry helping other survivors. So, don't give me your feminist BS.

Abortion kills.

Yes, that was speculation, despite your denials of facts.

Provide examples.

No, there are no victims in an abortion.

Good for your sister.  That she feels guilty about it doesn't speak for the majority of women who have them.

Cancer treatment kills, too.  Should that be banned?

So, spare me your own sanctimonious bullshit.  (and if you're going to say it, say it!)

I'm not going to type f**k.  I'll type fuck, when I mean to say, fuck!

Do you know anyone who has had an abortion, Beccs?

Ever talk with them about it?

Abortion - One Killed. One Wounded.

Quote:Is there something about Mormons and genital mutilation that I should know about?

Genital mutilation is not an Islam exclusive problem. Ethiopia has a very large percentage of female genital mutilation. It's mostly a Christian country. Eritrea has an even larger percentage, it's mostly a Christian country. Also, I find it difficult to theologically justify female genital mutilation when there's passages of Imam's and Mohammed saying the husband should satisfy the wife or no restrictions on the number of sex positions.


BTW, investigate the cult of Mormonism better

Randy: