NO ONE HAS ASSERTED THAT. Jesus fucking h, you're willful.

(June 4, 2015 at 10:43 am)pocaracas Wrote: Well, considering the evidence we have for Jesus' existence, we'd also have to consider that Gilgamesh existed, Ulisses existed, and maybe even Hercules...
Now, we may debate on which parts of the stories attributed to these characters actually happened, which were later additions to embellish the stories and which are just made up to draw in more people.

I'm willing to give you a Jesus, in the first century, that was followed by other people for his teachings on how to deal with one another, for his wisdom in interpreting the law of Moses in a humanistic way that people could identify with - the people who didn't want to die nor to kill, the people who didn't want war...
Eventually, either he got cocky and messed with the big dogs who did what they always do; or he just got fed up, settled down someplace where no one knew him and lived out his life.
The part where he gets cocky with the big dogs is reminiscent of the teacher's story(oh... both are some sort of teachers, huh?)... so, maybe, maybe (pointless speculation again), that part of the canon came from that previous reference and the actual person just went away somehow.


What I'm not willing to give you is that this Jesus guy did magic: multiply bread loaves, replenish wine bottles, walk on water, revive dead people, cure virus-induced diseases with a single touch, resurrect.... did I miss any? Oh, son of a god.
Can you convince me that the man actually did this magic? What would you use as backing for it? writings on a book wouldn't cut it... or else, Gilgamesh, Ulisses and Hercules could be real people as well.... not to mention some other characters that have popped-up more recently, like Super-man, Spider-man.
Super-man is actually a great example of how a fictional character can evolve. At first, he was just super strong, super fast and could leap over tall buildings... then, at some point, he could fly.... fly in to outer space, even; shoot lasers from his eyes, etc...

Jesus was real.
His miracles were not.

We're down to that as the heart of the disagreement, right?

The heart of the disagreement appears to be that no one cares Randy.  

(June 4, 2015 at 10:45 am)dyresand Wrote: Did you know catholics made up jesus and the hell myth? So pretty much christianity and also catholism is also based on lies and also bronze age mythology that has no basis in the real world.

When did they do that? About what year was it?

Cause the Jews had Gehenna, the Romans had Hades...when exactly did the Catholics make it up?

(June 4, 2015 at 6:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Jesus was real.
His miracles were not.

We're down to that as the heart of the disagreement, right?

I'm willing to go with that...

(June 4, 2015 at 11:26 am)whateverist Wrote: I have a serious question for you Randy.  What are you here for and how is that working out for you?

I'm really curious.  Are you hoping [1] that knowing more about catholicism will sway some lost souls to join you in your beliefs?  Do you [2] just want more people to know more about your faith than what certain priests do with certain youngsters?  Perhaps you [3] want atheists to see that smart people can be believers?  Or maybe [4] you just want to make sure that as many non-believers as possible are fully appraised of God so as to ensure they don't qualify for the ignorance exception, thereby ensuring their eternal damnation.  

If you don't mind speaking openly about your aspirations here I'm sure more than a few of us would be curious to know.

Thanks.

PS - just thought of a couple more theories for why you're here.  Are you [5] looking to deliver pay back for the atheists who crash your catholic site?  Or possibly you [6] find that site boring and just find your exchanges here a bit more exciting.

I came to learn more about atheism. I've been doing Catholic apologetics for 10 years or so. I thought it might be interesting to broaden my skills to Christian apologetics. Islam and Atheism are two areas of concern that I, as a Christian, have about the future of the world. So, I decided to chat with you folks.

And I must say, it's been a far different experience than I expected. Atheists are often depicted in the media as being the really smart people, the brainy science types, and the books and articles that I have read were based upon really complex philosophical arguments. 

So, to find that this site is mostly about venting anger and sophomoric humor has been a bit of an eye-opener...but that, too, has been educational.

For example, until a few days ago, I didn't really understand the depths of the 'myther' lunacy, but now I know that group is really a fringe of atheism...not taken terribly seriously by more educated atheists.

I'm also learning that a lot of atheists have emotional reasons for rejecting God. They were hurt as children, hurt in an abusive marriage, etc. These folks are just pissed off...and it's not terribly conducive to logical discourse when the other side is blinded by anger. I'm not saying I don't blame them, btw, but I think the anger is misplaced...and definitely misdirected at me. 

I think the other big category of atheists is the "volitional" atheists...the ones who simply don't WANT to acknowledge God - as God. They may be living with their boyfriend/girlfriend or using contraception or deeply addicted to pornography, etc. To admit that there is a holy God who expects all of us to be Holy (and makes it possible) requires giving up these pleasures. There's more to that, but the bottom line is that everybody wants to sit upon the throne of their own life...but there is another king to whom we owe fealty.

Finally, yes, there are intellectual objections to Christianity. Real ones that cannot be dismissed or taken lightly. This just doesn't seem to be the place where those issues are aired. Christianity is not being taken seriously enough here for that to happen.

So, I'm enjoying the discussions, learning a lot, and trying to provide Catholic Answers as best I can. Hopefully, you're benefiting in some way, too.

Peace.

(June 4, 2015 at 5:58 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Jesus did not ordain women. Neither can we.

Jesus didn't go to the toilet, eat yoghurt or play Xbox either. That's the trouble with getting your rules from a book of pronouncements, rather than a working system; eventually you come across something not in the book.

(June 4, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 5:58 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Jesus did not ordain women. Neither can we.

Jesus didn't go to the toilet, eat yoghurt or play Xbox either. That's the trouble with getting your rules from a book of pronouncements, rather than a working system; eventually you come across something not in the book.

Also, the Catholic Church had the concept of purgatory which they've now abandoned entirely.

I guess they're only willing to change their stand on certain issues.

Then again, why a woman would want to be ordained, let alone belong to, a group that has held them with such disdain for centuries is beyond me.

I guess it's another example of battered spouse syndrome.

I'm glad I got out of that cult at an early age.

Oh... you want to learn about atheists... why didn't you say so!!

My lack of belief comes from the awareness that my brain can be fooled.... my brain, your brain everyone's brain can be fooled.
It also wants answers to questions it poses, or other people pose... when faced with the lack of information to form a reasonable answer, it will delve into speculation... from speculation comes mythology.... so, in my endeavor to be as intellectually honest with myself as possible, I choose the answer "I do not know" for the questions that, currently, go beyond what science has available... even for some of those that science provides an answer, I'll take care and use the caveat that the answer comes from science... that ten-eyed bug... we'll see if those answers pan out on the long run...

From the implicit trust people, as children, must have for their caregivers, comes indoctrination and the convincing of something for which there is no actual evidence and which, if not presented (preferably, repeatedly) at that young impressionable age, would be laughed at by the majority of the adults receiving that information for the first time.... like Santa claus.
Whether it's christianity, islam, hinduism, animism, or whatever myth... this is the religion's main generational transmission vessel.

Add in politics and the awareness of the power such beliefs have on the people's behavior, and you get a state endorsed (sometimes enforced) belief system with a whole set of rules that the people must obey, under penalty by the ultimate free baby-sitter, god.
In christianity, those rules have become essentially the moral rules some like to discuss ad nauseum (but it wasn't always so).... In islam, you have Sharia which goes into rules about exchanges and the corresponding punishments for failure to abide them.... And I'm covering more than half the world's population with these 2, so... that's enough and I'm going to bed. cya!

(June 4, 2015 at 6:46 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Jesus didn't go to the toilet, eat yoghurt or play Xbox either. That's the trouble with getting your rules from a book of pronouncements, rather than a working system; eventually you come across something not in the book.

Also, the Catholic Church had the concept of purgatory which they've now abandoned entirely.

Incorrect. Purgatory has not been abandoned. You may be thinking of Limbo, but that was a theological speculation (which has not gone away, either).

Quote:I guess they're only willing to change their stand on certain issues.

Unlike every other Christian group, we are not changing on contraception, and we won't be changing on abortion, either. Two more ways the Church protects women. So, it's not all bad.

Quote:Then again, why a woman would want to be ordained, let alone belong to, a group that has held them with such disdain for centuries is beyond me.

I guess it's another example of battered spouse syndrome.

I'm glad I got out of that cult at an early age.

If you left at an early age, then I suspect that you did not have a mature, adult understanding.

However, if you want more information about the dignity of women which has been defended by the Catholic Church, John Paul II wrote an entire encyclical entitled "On the Dignity and Role of Women".

The Catholic Church made most of the advances which you enjoy today possible. This is history. You can read about it.

---

(June 4, 2015 at 6:47 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Oh... you want to learn about atheists... why didn't you say so!!

My lack of belief comes from the awareness that my brain can be fooled.... my brain, your brain everyone's brain can be fooled.
It also wants answers to questions it poses, or other people pose... when faced with the lack of information to form a reasonable answer, it will delve into speculation... from speculation comes mythology.... so, in my endeavor to be as intellectually honest with myself as possible, I choose the answer "I do not know" for the questions that, currently, go beyond what science has available... even for some of those that science provides an answer, I'll take care and use the caveat that the answer comes from science... that ten-eyed bug... we'll see if those answers pan out on the long run...

From the implicit trust people, as children, must have for their caregivers, comes indoctrination and the convincing of something for which there is no actual evidence and which, if not presented (preferably, repeatedly) at that young impressionable age, would be laughed at by the majority of the adults receiving that information for the first time.... like Santa claus.
Whether it's christianity, islam, hinduism, animism, or whatever myth... this is the religion's main generational transmission vessel.

Add in politics and the awareness of the power such beliefs have on the people's behavior, and you get a state endorsed (sometimes enforced) belief system with a whole set of rules that the people must obey, under penalty by the ultimate free baby-sitter, god.
In christianity, those rules have become essentially the moral rules some like to discuss ad nauseum (but it wasn't always so).... In islam, you have Sharia which goes into rules about exchanges and the corresponding punishments for failure to abide them.... And I'm covering more than half the world's population with these 2, so... that's enough and I'm going to bed. cya!

I do. But there are other threads.

This is "Ask a Catholic", so let's stay focused. 

BTW - did you know that you and I are not actually discussing anything? I'm only proselytizing (having dropped all pretenses).