(June 12, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Therefore, I ask again: On what basis can you say with certainty what the theist has or has not personally experienced of God?

On the same basis I can rule out anyone had personal experiences with fairies or unicorns. Special claims demand for special evidence.

(June 12, 2015 at 12:21 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 12, 2015 at 11:50 am)Randy Carson Wrote: You wouldn't. No one would.

And yet, many people, atheists included (highlighted for emphasis), continue to consider what is proposed by theism and find that it is reasonable.

How is that trickery?

Are there that many fools on the planet in the course of history and only a few intelligentsia who broke free?

Indoctrination is powerful stuff... and the unfalsifiable nature of the claim make people stick to it... once hooked, it becomes problematic to think about it as just a man-made concept.
Think back to how you got hooked. Did anyone show you a god? Did anyone do any apologetics?

Brainwashing is almost like washing clothes with bleach - easy to get the stains out, but not so easy to get the color back on.

Remember, Randy, half the population has an IQ below 100.
Nowadays, in the US, an IQ of 100 is a bit low, wouldn't you say?... still, half of americans stand down there. So yes, there are that many fools.
Educations is one thing that can make the non-fools think... but it's clearly not enough.

Existing atheists need not be aware of the multiple pitfalls of their own psychology.
Heck, even psychologists fail to their own psychology! It was a psychologist that said that they can apply all the theory to other people, but never to themselves... or.. well... I don't like the word "never" in this context... I'd say that they can seldom apply it successfully to themselves.

In the end, all I see are people, believers and non-believers... regardless of the existence of any god, their bickering goes on... If it happens regardless of the existence of any god, then why believe? Why assume that such an entity exists?
Because others believe it?
Because you don't have all the answers to the world, as you would like?
Because death scares the shit out of you and you feel better knowing (actually believing) that your essence will go on indefinitely, even knowing full well that your body will die, decay, rot and be dispersed into the wind?
Because your momma tells you so?

Tell me, what other reason is there for people to cling to belief in a god?

You speak about God like a confirmed bachelor might speak about marriage. You have no use for women. You want nothing to do with them. You prefer the company of your mates, the camaraderie of sports and fishing, and women mean nothing more to you than the punch lines of an endless stream of jokes. And of course, you resist the attempts of your friends to introduce you to anyone, and you heap scorn upon them as they fall one by one into wedded bliss. No, you're sworn to be single until the day you die.

And then you see her.

Laugh on, Benedick. You do not yet know the love of Beatrice.

(June 12, 2015 at 1:35 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Do you guys will ever cut with the bullshit and teach us a way to find your god?

This is the way:

Matthew 7:7-12
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

(June 12, 2015 at 2:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 12, 2015 at 12:21 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Indoctrination is powerful stuff... and the unfalsifiable nature of the claim make people stick to it... once hooked, it becomes problematic to think about it as just a man-made concept.
Think back to how you got hooked. Did anyone show you a god? Did anyone do any apologetics?

Brainwashing is almost like washing clothes with bleach - easy to get the stains out, but not so easy to get the color back on.

Remember, Randy, half the population has an IQ below 100.
Nowadays, in the US, an IQ of 100 is a bit low, wouldn't you say?... still, half of americans stand down there. So yes, there are that many fools.
Educations is one thing that can make the non-fools think... but it's clearly not enough.

Existing atheists need not be aware of the multiple pitfalls of their own psychology.
Heck, even psychologists fail to their own psychology! It was a psychologist that said that they can apply all the theory to other people, but never to themselves... or.. well... I don't like the word "never" in this context... I'd say that they can seldom apply it successfully to themselves.

In the end, all I see are people, believers and non-believers... regardless of the existence of any god, their bickering goes on... If it happens regardless of the existence of any god, then why believe? Why assume that such an entity exists?
Because others believe it?
Because you don't have all the answers to the world, as you would like?
Because death scares the shit out of you and you feel better knowing (actually believing) that your essence will go on indefinitely, even knowing full well that your body will die, decay, rot and be dispersed into the wind?
Because your momma tells you so?

Tell me, what other reason is there for people to cling to belief in a god?

You speak about God like a confirmed bachelor might speak about marriage. You have no use for women. You want nothing to do with them. You prefer the company of your mates, the camaraderie of sports and fishing, and women mean nothing more to you than the punch lines of an endless stream of jokes. And of course, you resist the attempts of your friends to introduce you to anyone, and you heap scorn upon them as they fall one by one into wedded bliss. No, you're sworn to be single until the day you die.

And then you see her.

Laugh on, Benedick. You do not yet know the love of Beatrice.

What's the matter? run out of smart things to say?
I didn't speak about god... I spoke about people's beliefs in god(s). 2 different and not necessarily overlapping things.

(June 12, 2015 at 12:10 pm)Esquilax Wrote: So, despite the fact that I very specifically quoted areas of the paper demonstrating that it does not point to a beginning of all universes, period, just a beginning to our current expansion model, despite the fact that actually, the scientific consensus tends to agree with me, that we aren't equipped to properly measure beyond that point yet, you're still going to insist, on the basis of Youtube apologists and a scientific paper that has been demonstrated not to say what you think it says, that actually the science says something totally opposite to that?

Based upon your understanding of the best science currently available, did the universe have a beginning or not?

(June 12, 2015 at 2:22 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Ah...when I saw Simon Moon's post, I thought that must be who you were parroting.

And I dealt with those objections, didn't I?

No, the threads you gave me left me with the impression that in quiet discussions amongst yourselves (with no apparent theists around to close ranks around), a lot of you were still scratching your heads over how to deal with the KCA. I'm not sure you have even come to any definitive conclusions about whether the universe has always existed or not.

Parroting? Not exactly, as you may or may not be aware, what he posted is an accurate refutation of Kalam, which is you know, the same regardless of who's presenting it.

No, you didn't. You outright dismissed the idea that Kalam is special pleading, continued to disregard the difference between the two meanings of 'beginning to exist', didn't even address the composition fallacy by stating that Kalam was not trying to prove the universe has a cause (when it obviously is. Cosmological argument, remember?), continued to ignore the fact that we simply cannot comprehend what was 'before' the universe and in response to Esq you just said you don't know enough to debate it. You also refused to see the god of the gaps in your reasoning and made a weak attempt to tu quoque abaris who clearly said he was fine with saying 'I don't know' by saying atheists are using 'science of the gaps'.

No, Randy. You didn't address shit. And until you do, I'm done wasting time on your dishonest tactics.

(June 12, 2015 at 2:32 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 12, 2015 at 2:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: You speak about God like a confirmed bachelor might speak about marriage. You have no use for women. You want nothing to do with them. You prefer the company of your mates, the camaraderie of sports and fishing, and women mean nothing more to you than the punch lines of an endless stream of jokes. And of course, you resist the attempts of your friends to introduce you to anyone, and you heap scorn upon them as they fall one by one into wedded bliss. No, you're sworn to be single until the day you die.

And then you see her.

Laugh on, Benedick. You do not yet know the love of Beatrice.

What's the matter? run out of smart things to say?
I didn't speak about god... I spoke about people's beliefs in god(s). 2 different and not necessarily overlapping things.

And I spoke of the bachelor's belief in love and marriage...things that must be experienced.

Apparently, you do not realize how well I spoke.

(June 12, 2015 at 2:34 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 12, 2015 at 12:10 pm)Esquilax Wrote: So, despite the fact that I very specifically quoted areas of the paper demonstrating that it does not point to a beginning of all universes, period, just a beginning to our current expansion model, despite the fact that actually, the scientific consensus tends to agree with me, that we aren't equipped to properly measure beyond that point yet, you're still going to insist, on the basis of Youtube apologists and a scientific paper that has been demonstrated not to say what you think it says, that actually the science says something totally opposite to that?

Based upon your understanding of the best science currently available, did the universe have a beginning or not?

We don't know. Therefore Zeus. Checkmate, atheist scum!!

Just....don't. It's getting painful.