(June 15, 2015 at 12:21 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 15, 2015 at 9:29 am)bennyboy Wrote: Okay, so you and I have different perceptions of how the average male may feel.  You suggest that's because I'm projecting my own attitudes on the general population-- but I've seen enough men express similar opinions that I don't believe that to be the case.

I am going to ask you once more for numbers.  How many?

Take ANY idea you've picked up from your observations of people in life, and then tell me how many you've witnessed.  You should know that's a stupid request.  If you really want to know, then ask your male friends without any setup or preparatory explanation-- "If you took a beautiful woman home, and she revealed a penis to you, would you be traumatized?"  I think some of them will answer in the affirmative, but I've already said that I might be mistaken-- it could just be me.

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(June 15, 2015 at 9:29 am)bennyboy Wrote: I think it's likely that you are ALSO projecting your own values onto others, and that those have been validated by your own different experiences of other's men's behavior in certain situation.

Having managed an adult video store in SoCal which functioned as a meeting place for people at the small ends of the sexual bell curve, I'm comfortable with the knowledge that my opinion is informed by knowing many of the folks we're talking about here. I've yet to see any qualification of yours beyond a finely-honed sense of "eeeeww".

Because people in a sex shop are representative of the sexual mores of most men in America?  Sure.

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(June 15, 2015 at 9:29 am)bennyboy Wrote: And that's what you're not getting.  A woman who went home with me and had sex with me is providing me with a happy and validating experience, because I'm straight.  A transwoman who goes home with me and surprising me is acting aggressively in a situation which makes me vulnerable, which I think is a non-trivial violation of my personhood.  The trauma doesn't come from the wiener.  It comes from the fail to disclose

Calling that an aggressive act is silly. I've linked to the definition, for your edification.

If you don't think a woman with a penis revealing that only at the moment of coitus is an aggressive act, then you're wrong.  That (hypothetical) person would know she would likely not be received well, and so we must assume she would be doing it because she WANTED to incite a negative response from the prospective partner.  That's aggression.  And now you are being dishonest again.  You didn't link that for my "edification," you did it for your patronization.

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(June 15, 2015 at 9:29 am)bennyboy Wrote: Join the club.

I'm sorry to hear of it.

Yeah, you sound super-sorry, and you showed it by skipping exactly, and only, those parts of my previous post in which I demonstrated my direct experience with non-rape sexual aggression.

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(June 15, 2015 at 9:29 am)bennyboy Wrote: I don't need to compare it to rape.

Yet  you did, and when the bullshit comparison was pointed out, instead of discarding it as unnecessary, you dug your heels in.  The inability to admit error is bad enough; embracing unnecessary error is folly multiplied.

What the fuck?  I EXACTLY discarded it as unnecessary, and demonstrated its lack of necessity by providing at least two situations from my own life in which simple failure to disclose represented sexual aggression-- remember?  All those sentences you chose not to quote?  I also said I had decided to backpedal (how often do you see that in a "discussion" like this one?) and said that I didn't consider it central to my argument.  I made an attempt several times to turn the discussion back to the "transracial" person in the OP.  Now, I don't have to imply, or to say "I think" you're a liar in reference to my own experience.  I know you're a liar.

I think at this point it would be politic to abandon this thread as the fuckfest flamewar that it's obviously developing into.  I'm out.  Go ahead and take your last shots if you want, but I won't be reading them.

(June 14, 2015 at 8:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: We shouldn't consider them women, because they aren't women. 

Would you take offence if people don't consider you a real man?

I always thought gender was with what label one chooses to identify oneself according to one's feeling of accordance with the current cultural ideas about that label, whereas one's sex is simply the genitalia one possesses (which isn't even simply a binary male-or-female in that case as well, since plenty of intersex people have been born).

Is it something more complicated than that?

Gender identity not something anybody chooses, and has nothing to do with how culture/society views sex, gender roles or what traits are perceived to be feminine or masculine

Quote:Gender identity is usually formed by age three and is extremely difficult to change after that.[2][3] The formation also commonly concludes between the ages of four and six.[4] Gender identity is affected by influence of others, social interactions, and a child’s own personal interest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

Gender itself

Quote:In 2011, the FDA reversed its position and began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

(June 15, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: It's not something anybody chooses, and has nothing to do with how culture/society views sex, gender roles or what traits are perceived to be feminine or masculine

Quote:Gender identity is usually formed by age three and is extremely difficult to change after that.[2][3] The formation also commonly concludes between the ages of four and six.[4] Gender identity is affected by influence of others, social interactions, and a child’s own personal interest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

Er...

(June 15, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: has nothing to do with how culture/society views sex, gender roles or what traits are perceived to be feminine or masculine

and from your wiki quote..

Quote:Gender identity is affected by influence of others, social interactions, and a child’s own personal interest

I think I'm missing something here. And I wasn't trying to imply that one's gender identity was simply a choice because I'm sure it's something that's formed at an early age and is somewhat immutable, but whatever term they prefer to use to describe themselves is.

Yes, you're missing that gender identity is formed at a young age, but also that gender dysphoria is a separate condition caused by brain structure and chemical stuff, which was what I was referring to, having the earlier discussion in mind, sorry for not clarifying that

Fair enough. I'm pretty ignorant on all the minutia of gender identity and labels and such in a scientific sense, as most of my philosophy regarding the subject pretty much comes from the idea of 'to each their own'. And especially on the idea of 'considering someone a man/woman'...I'll consider them whatever they want me to consider them, doesn't hurt me any.

Okay, that might've been even more confusing, damn brain farts. Sorry about that. Let me try again

Sex is biological, referring to the genitalia, gender is more or less a social construct, gender identity determines what gender you are and is formed at a young age, and gender dysphoria is a condition in which your gender identity doesn't match your biological sex caused by brain structure and brain chemistry

There. I hope that's less confusing....I'm terrible at explaining stuff

(June 15, 2015 at 4:40 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Okay, that might've been even more confusing, damn brain farts. Sorry about that. Let me try again

Sex is biological, referring to the genitalia, gender is more or less a social construct, gender identity determines what gender you are and is formed at a young age, and gender dysphoria is a condition in which your gender identity doesn't match your biological sex caused by brain structure and brain chemistry

There. I hope that's less confusing....I'm terrible at explaining stuff

That does help, thanks a bunch. I just still don't get all the folks getting bent out of shape about what the 'consider' or 'call' a person.

Phew. Words and stuff. It's a complex idea and it's hard to wrap your head around it for sure, I hope I got all that right

(June 15, 2015 at 4:48 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I just still don't get all the folks getting bent out of shape about what the 'consider' or 'call' a person.

Beats me ¯\_(°_o)_/¯