(June 16, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Dystopia Wrote: That was my point... You don't need to keep the gender you were assigned at birth

Sorry I did wonder if you were saying that but then assumed you were saying something different. My mistake.

(June 16, 2015 at 2:03 pm)wallym Wrote: What 'meaning' is a transgender person assigning to 'man' or 'woman' that makes it critical to be labeled as such?

All forms of prejudice are harmful because the recipient is treated as something that they are not. For example, no matter how honourable, polite or good natured a man if they are still treated like a criminal because they are black. Or a woman is treated as overly emotional or incompetent no matter how confident and skilled they may be. It's the same with being transgendered. Everyone treats you as something they expect you to be, not what you are. In each of these cases you are forced to be something that you are not.

Now if you haven't started transitioning then fair enough, you can't expect people to treat you like a woman if you don't change anything about yourself. But if you do go through hundreds of hours of painful electrolysis, difficult surgery, mood swings, be stared at in the street, risk assault or being groped, endure nightmare bureaucracy, lose all your friends and possibly your job, spend all your money on making the transition, then live life as a woman, be accepted as such, grow as an individual and have the same experiences as other women and someone then refers to you as 'him' or says that you aren't a proper woman because of something they can't see (your genes) ... then they're just being an arsehole.

(June 16, 2015 at 2:28 pm)I_am_not_mafia Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 2:03 pm)wallym Wrote: What 'meaning' is a transgender person assigning to 'man' or 'woman' that makes it critical to be labeled as such?

All forms of prejudice are harmful because the recipient is treated as something that they are not. For example, no matter how honourable, polite or good natured a man if they are still treated like a criminal because they are black. Or a woman is treated as overly emotional or incompetent no matter how confident and skilled they may be. It's the same with being transgendered. Everyone treats you as something they expect you to be, not what you are. In each of these cases you are forced to be something that you are not.

Now if you haven't started transitioning then fair enough, you can't expect people to treat you like a woman if you don't change anything about yourself. But if you do go through hundreds of hours of painful electrolysis, difficult surgery, mood swings, be stared at in the street, risk assault or being groped, endure nightmare bureaucracy, lose all your friends and possibly your job, spend all your money on making the transition, then live life as a woman, be accepted as such, grow as an individual and have the same experiences as other women and someone then refers to you as 'him' or says that you aren't a proper woman because of something they can't see (your genes) ... then they're just being an arsehole.

Right, but you see how that's moving in the opposite direction of civil rights, yes?  The idea of 'treating someone like a woman' is now considered mildly offensive.  Treating a black person like a criminal is definitely offensive.  So as we move towards treating everyone equally, it seems like transgender is pushing for the opposite, a bit, no?

(June 16, 2015 at 2:15 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 2:03 pm)wallym Wrote: What 'meaning' is a transgender person assigning to 'man' or 'woman' that makes it critical to be labeled as such?

Nothing to do with gender roles. Nothing to do with stereotypes. Nothing to do with sexism.
Brain structure. Chemistry. Gender identity not matching biological sex. gender dysphoria.

Linkies
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20...T2HvSG4TIU
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

The 2nd link has gender roles as one of the key components of understanding gender identity. In fact, it seems to be saying the opposite of what you said before linking to it.

(June 16, 2015 at 2:51 pm)wallym Wrote: The 2nd link has gender roles as one of the key components of understanding gender identity. In fact, it seems to be saying the opposite of what you said before linking to it.

Yes, the concept of gender does involve gender roles, but what I was referring to when I said 'nothing to do with gender roles' was gender dysphoria; and that is true:its caused by brain structure and not one's opinion of gender roles, as is often implied

(June 16, 2015 at 2:49 pm)wallym Wrote: Right, but you see how that's moving in the opposite direction of civil rights, yes?  The idea of 'treating someone like a woman' is now considered mildly offensive.  Treating a black person like a criminal is definitely offensive.  So as we move towards treating everyone equally, it seems like transgender is pushing for the opposite, a bit, no?

I see what you're saying but if we treat people as who they are as individuals, not how we expect them to be based on stereotypes then there won't be any prejudice.

I think the problem that you're identifying comes about because trans people have to fight so hard just to reach the starting block so they can live the kind of lives everyone else takes for granted. A transgendered woman may not like misogyny but would prefer to fight against that whilst being seen as a woman than have male privilege because they are seen as being male.

As the Iron Maiden song goes, die with your boots on. Transgendered people are just trying to get access to a pair of boots before they can even start living.

I_am_not_mafia, I'm curious how you feel TG people should be treated with regards to things like sports, where they could have an unfair advantage. As I mentioned before, imagine if Jenner, a superior world-class athlete as a man, had competed as a woman. In this case, should she be accepted as a woman because she identifies as a woman? Or should she be prevented from competing as a woman because her physical past would give her an unfair advantage over natural-born women?

(June 16, 2015 at 6:14 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I_am_not_mafia, I'm curious how you feel TG people should be treated with regards to things like sports, where they could have an unfair advantage.  As I mentioned before, imagine if Jenner, a superior world-class athlete as a man, had competed as a woman.  In this case, should she be accepted as a woman because she identifies as a woman?  Or should she be prevented from competing as a woman because her physical past would give her an unfair advantage over natural-born women?

I can't remember if it was you who said it, but probably the smart thing here would have been to have different terms for sex and identity since they are different things.

I think there'd be a lot less objections and confusion from a lot of people if that were the case.

This sort of relates to the NAACP lady as well. As there is culture and there is race. Black gets that double usage there, which again confuses things. More so, with 'race' being a bit wonky in and of itself.

Yeah, that was me. This tendency to demand that all cases fit into a single word is the real root of these evils. In the case of the OP girl, it's more mysterious than in the case of transgender people, though. I just can't see a problem with a woman saying, "My parents are white, but my husband and kids are black, and I hope you will accept me as a person who identifies with black culture." Why did she have to pretend?

"I was born a poor black child"