PLEASE everyone stop making the false conclusion that because someone points out the harm religion causes, that somehow that means it is advocating the forcible end of it. There are lots of illnesses humans can have that are chronic but manageable. This kneejerk reaction is the same some have with Hitchens calling religion poison. You cant remove Mt Fuji with a Bobcat,  but only a fool pretends a dormant volcano is not a volcano.

(June 21, 2015 at 11:39 am)Brian37 Wrote: Now to my well intended liberal friends, before you read this, please don't use "not all religious people are racist", no one is claiming that our should claim that. The following is about the evolutionary psychology behind what religion is as a concept. It is an excuse to group as a way of creating social order. The problem is in doing such it sets up tribalism and in group vs out group. Religion is the cause of racism.

I think one thing completely ignored by humans in acts like that of Roof, is the claim that it had nothing to do with religion. When you look at what Roof soaked up online that lead him to this horrible act, one would be stupid to claim that the KKK was not founded as a religious organization. Racism is a direct result of religion, regardless of any empathy liberals of faith or atheists want to claim can be separated. Religion itself, regardless of label, in our species history sets up tribalism. It is why white Tea Party Baptists, and black southern Baptists, can share the same label, but be radically different polar opposites on politics and economics. 

And even outside this country, I was called "racist" by a Hindu from India after I told them their religion was not special. That was even after I pointed out atheists groups on facebook started by citizens of India who were born in Hindu families but simply left the religion. Even with Palestine and Israel, religion produces the racism BOTH can and do rightfully point to about the other. It is the same after the Hebdo attacks in France, and both Jews and Muslims would be RIGHT in saying they suffer discrimination. Racism is a product of religion, and is what religion hides behind both left and right, to avoid scrutiny of religion. 

I do not say this in some sort of delusional call to force religion out of existence, as if one could on a planet of 7 billion. But a call for my fellow species, which ultimately stems from the same DNA going back far enough in evolution. To understand that the concept of religion, has to be treated for what it really is, simply a reflection of local, social norms, and should not be put on a pedestal. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no KKK. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Sunnis and Shiites. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Jews and Palestinians. If there had been no god of Abraham there would have been no black slavery.  If there had been no god of Abraham invented, Hitler, regardless of his personal beliefs, would not have been able to convince Germans that they were God's chosen people. 

Religion causes racism, it causes human divisions, there simply is no good way to be polite about what the history of this concept has done to our species in our history. If we bravely face this, we can and will manage our differences to a much greater civil degree. Although I agree, without a religion Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were god's chosen people, but he could have just manipulated them some other way.

Racism is mainly a product of human behaviour, religion has been responsible for promoting and preventing racism depending on the circumstances.
I'd say slavery, including black slavery, would almost certainly still exist with or without an Abrahamic god. It existed in the tribes of Africa before they even knew about an Abrahamic god.
And people like Hitler have existed in countries that know nothing of any Abrahamic god. Although I'd agree with the statement you made, Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were God's chosen people without religion, but I believe he would just manipulate people some other way.
In any society with or without God people split into groups and try and beat each other, without an Abrahamic god these groups would most likely just have different names and different rhetoric.

(June 22, 2015 at 10:28 am)Brian37 Wrote: Religion causes racism regardless of pointing out those in religion who are not racists. It is a concept that sets up in group vs out group.

Religion may reinforce racism, but it is not the cause. Religion reinforces in-group vs. out-group, but it is not the cause.

Our evolved kin preference gives rise to xenophobia and religion and nationalism feed on that.

Brian,
Using your reasoning you could point at the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and claim religions create athleticism.

(June 23, 2015 at 8:23 am)Brian37 Wrote: Back to front, front to back, religion is still the cause. You sell a utopia and no one questions it, the followers are sure to screw someone over.

Oh and please spare me the idea that the KKK is not a religious organization. Here is a KKK member claiming they are. The irony is this dipshit wants to revise the religious bigoted history of the KKK. White Christian KKK members as a majority were lynching blacks for a long period of it's history. This  idiot is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21...08647.html

But you can't have it both ways.  If religion is THE cause of racism, then there should be no non-racist religious people.  Since there clearly are (you've said so yourself), the point fails and fails utterly.

Sorry, when did I say the KKK is NOT a religious organization?  We were talking about the founding of this nightmare, not its current state (in case you didn't know, the current KKK is the third movement to use the name).  If you'll stop moving the goalposts, we might get somewhere with this.

I'm just curious:  Since you believe this lunatic who says the Klan is a Christian organization, do you also believe him when he says, 'It's not a hateful thing to want to maintain White Supremacy,' or are you now some sort of 'cafeteria atheist', just picking and choosing the bits you already agree with?

Boru

(June 23, 2015 at 10:00 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 11:39 am)Brian37 Wrote: Now to my well intended liberal friends, before you read this, please don't use "not all religious people are racist", no one is claiming that our should claim that. The following is about the evolutionary psychology behind what religion is as a concept. It is an excuse to group as a way of creating social order. The problem is in doing such it sets up tribalism and in group vs out group. Religion is the cause of racism.

I think one thing completely ignored by humans in acts like that of Roof, is the claim that it had nothing to do with religion. When you look at what Roof soaked up online that lead him to this horrible act, one would be stupid to claim that the KKK was not founded as a religious organization. Racism is a direct result of religion, regardless of any empathy liberals of faith or atheists want to claim can be separated. Religion itself, regardless of label, in our species history sets up tribalism. It is why white Tea Party Baptists, and black southern Baptists, can share the same label, but be radically different polar opposites on politics and economics. 

And even outside this country, I was called "racist" by a Hindu from India after I told them their religion was not special. That was even after I pointed out atheists groups on facebook started by citizens of India who were born in Hindu families but simply left the religion. Even with Palestine and Israel, religion produces the racism BOTH can and do rightfully point to about the other. It is the same after the Hebdo attacks in France, and both Jews and Muslims would be RIGHT in saying they suffer discrimination. Racism is a product of religion, and is what religion hides behind both left and right, to avoid scrutiny of religion. 

I do not say this in some sort of delusional call to force religion out of existence, as if one could on a planet of 7 billion. But a call for my fellow species, which ultimately stems from the same DNA going back far enough in evolution. To understand that the concept of religion, has to be treated for what it really is, simply a reflection of local, social norms, and should not be put on a pedestal. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no KKK. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Sunnis and Shiites. If there had been no god of Abraham invented, there would be no fighting between Jews and Palestinians. If there had been no god of Abraham there would have been no black slavery.  If there had been no god of Abraham invented, Hitler, regardless of his personal beliefs, would not have been able to convince Germans that they were God's chosen people. 

Religion causes racism, it causes human divisions, there simply is no good way to be polite about what the history of this concept has done to our species in our history. If we bravely face this, we can and will manage our differences to a much greater civil degree.  Although I agree, without a religion Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were god's chosen people, but he could have just manipulated them some other way.  

Racism is mainly a product of human behaviour, religion has been responsible for promoting and preventing racism depending on the circumstances.
I'd say slavery, including black slavery, would almost certainly still exist with or without an Abrahamic god. It existed in the tribes of Africa before they even knew about an Abrahamic god.
And people like Hitler have existed in countries that know nothing of any Abrahamic god.  Although I'd agree with the statement you made, Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were God's chosen people without religion, but I believe he would just manipulate people some other way.
 In any society with or without God people split into groups and try and beat each other, without an Abrahamic god these groups would most likely just have different names and different rhetoric.

Still missing my point. Religion IS the cause of racism, because it is the ignorance of reality in that our grouping is evolutionary, not comic book in nature. You can demonstrate evolutionary rivalry quite naturally without religion. Take random people that don't know each other, get two teams together to play a game or sport, automatically the group cooperates as a team to win the game/sport. That is a simulation of gaining resources/ the points, the win, represent survival. Religion is a result of human's false perceptions that turn our natural behavior into a comic book.

(June 24, 2015 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 23, 2015 at 10:00 am)paulpablo Wrote: Racism is mainly a product of human behaviour, religion has been responsible for promoting and preventing racism depending on the circumstances.
I'd say slavery, including black slavery, would almost certainly still exist with or without an Abrahamic god. It existed in the tribes of Africa before they even knew about an Abrahamic god.
And people like Hitler have existed in countries that know nothing of any Abrahamic god.  Although I'd agree with the statement you made, Hitler couldn't have convinced people they were God's chosen people without religion, but I believe he would just manipulate people some other way.
 In any society with or without God people split into groups and try and beat each other, without an Abrahamic god these groups would most likely just have different names and different rhetoric.

Still missing my point. Religion IS the cause of racism, because it is the ignorance of reality in that our grouping is evolutionary, not comic book in nature. You can demonstrate evolutionary rivalry quite naturally without religion. Take random people that don't know each other, get two teams together to play a game or sport, automatically the group cooperates as a team to win the game/sport. That is a simulation of gaining resources/ the points, the win, represent survival. Religion is a result of human's false perceptions that turn our natural behavior into a comic book.

I don't know what you mean by turning our natural behaviour into a comic book but I doubt It will change the fact that people can be racist with or without religion and that slavery exists in places where no Abrahamic god was heard of.

I believe the cause is larger than religion. I have seen exclusion in all types of groups for all types of reasons. Probably wired in our brains, if a particular group is formed that group will invent reasons for exclusion. Ever read the Dr. Seuss story The Sneetches?

(June 24, 2015 at 12:52 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 11:26 am)Brian37 Wrote: Still missing my point. Religion IS the cause of racism, because it is the ignorance of reality in that our grouping is evolutionary, not comic book in nature. You can demonstrate evolutionary rivalry quite naturally without religion. Take random people that don't know each other, get two teams together to play a game or sport, automatically the group cooperates as a team to win the game/sport. That is a simulation of gaining resources/ the points, the win, represent survival. Religion is a result of human's false perceptions that turn our natural behavior into a comic book.

I don't know what you mean by turning our natural behaviour into a comic book but I doubt It will change the fact that people can be racist with or without religion and that slavery exists in places where no Abrahamic god was heard of.

Certainly you understand what I mean by taking our natural behavior and turning it into a comic book. Just like you know Santa is really your parents. It takes the idea of giving and turns it into a comic book claim. It turns authority "Naughty or nice" into a comic book claim. 

Giving is an act of empathy not magic. Regulating like a parent while varying in attitudes from family to family are also attempts to create social order and cooperation. Santa is a child like concept of our natural behavior, and the same can be said for religion. It takes our behaviors and makes comic book justifications for them, good or bad. Santa and religion distort reality, but only one is viewed as fact when both are fiction.

(June 24, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 12:52 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know what you mean by turning our natural behaviour into a comic book but I doubt It will change the fact that people can be racist with or without religion and that slavery exists in places where no Abrahamic god was heard of.

Certainly you understand what I mean by taking our natural behavior and turning it into a comic book. Just like you know Santa is really your parents. It takes the idea of giving and turns it into a comic book claim. It turns authority "Naughty or nice" into a comic book claim. 

Giving is an act of empathy not magic. Regulating like a parent while varying in attitudes from family to family are also attempts to create social order and cooperation. Santa is a child like concept of our natural behavior, and the same can be said for religion. It takes our behaviors and makes comic book justifications for them, good or bad. Santa and religion distort reality, but only one is viewed as fact when both are fiction.

None of what you have said provides evidence of religion being the cause of racism.  The most you can say is that there are some religions that promote racism.